tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (When to close, when to delete) 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Scott Carnahan comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10085) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10085#Comment_10085 2010-11-02T01:16:12-07:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Scott Carnahan http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/73/ Update: Ashok has replied with a reason for deleting. The moderators are discussing it. (Sorry for the low information density) Update: Ashok has replied with a reason for deleting. The moderators are discussing it. (Sorry for the low information density)

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Will Jagy comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10084) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10084#Comment_10084 2010-11-01T20:57:23-07:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Will Jagy http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/208/ Pietro, Ashok just posted a revised form of the question, or a question anyway, and called your attention to it in a comment.http://mathoverflow.net/questions/44452/weak-convergence
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WillieWong comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10083) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10083#Comment_10083 2010-11-01T18:50:53-07:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 WillieWong http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/288/ Huh, now I am confused. I was repeating hearsay told to me by someone else in a different thread that a question cannot be deleted after answers have been posted. But now that I go back a look at my ... Huh, now I am confused. I was repeating hearsay told to me by someone else in a different thread that a question cannot be deleted after answers have been posted. But now that I go back a look at my old questions, all of them (including the ones I have accepted answers for) display a link for [delete] at the bottom of the questions. So how exactly does this software work? (No, I don't think I want to find out by trying to delete one of my old questions.)

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Scott Carnahan comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10082) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10082#Comment_10082 2010-11-01T18:36:21-07:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Scott Carnahan http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/73/ Your answer received one upvote before Ashok deleted the question, so my new conjecture about this software is that the person asking the question can delete as long as an answer isn't accepted. ... Your answer received one upvote before Ashok deleted the question, so my new conjecture about this software is that the person asking the question can delete as long as an answer isn't accepted. It's not clear to me why Ashok deleted the question, but I feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of using my power to undelete without more discussion. I'll send Ashok an email.

I don't know if you can see your answer at this link, but it should be viewable to users with at least 10000 points. Here is the text of the question and answer, separated by a line segment:

This is just an extension of my previous question http://mathoverflow.net/questions/41259/tightness-of-probabilty-distributions

Let $\mathcal{P}(\mathbb{N})$ be the set of all PMF's on $\mathbb{N}={1,2,\dots }$. Let $E$ be a convex subset of $\mathcal{P}(\mathbb{N})$ and $Q\notin E$. Let $\alpha>1$ and $\beta=\frac{1}{\alpha}$. Let us suppose that $s:=\displaystyle \sup_{P' \in E'}\sum P'(x)^{\beta}Q'(x)^{1-\beta} >0$, where $P'(x)=\frac{P(x)^{\alpha}}{\sum P(x)^{\alpha}}$,and $E'=\{P':P\in E\}$. My problem is to find a convex $E$ such that $E'$ is closed (with respect to the total variation metric) but $s$ is not attained in $E'$.

By making use of the example given by Bill Bradley in the above mentioned thread, I have the following very close counterexample.

Let $Q=(1,0,0,0,...)$ and let $R_n$, for $n=2,3,...,$ as $R_n(1)=\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{n}, R_n(n)=\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n}$ and $R_n(x)=0$ for all other values and let $E=$ Convex hull of ${R_n}$.

As you can see $s=1$ and is not attained in $E'$ (actually attained at $(1, 0, 0,\dots)$ which is not in $E'$.) This is what I would be happy with. But the problem here is that $E'$ is not closed also, because if we take $P_n=\frac{1}{n} \sum_{i=2}^{n+1}R_i$, then $P_n'\to (1, 0, 0, \dots)\notin E'$. But I want $E'$ to be closed.

Can one somehow change the things here a bit and get a counterexample ( i.e., $E$ convex, $E'$ closed but $s$ is not attained)? Or may the result be true?


I think that in your assumption, the supremum is actually attained.

Consider the set $$\hat E:=\{tp \ :\ t\geq0 \ , \quad p\in E\ \} \cap\bar B(0,1;\ell^\alpha).$$ Since $E$ is convex, $\hat E$ is convex too (here $\bar B(0,1;\ell^\alpha)$ denotes the closed unit ball of the sequence space $\ell^\alpha$).

Moreover, we are going to show that the assumption that $E^'$ is closed in $\ell^1,$ implies that $\hat E$ is a closed bounded subset of the reflexive space $\ell^\alpha$, thus weakly compact. Indeed, let $u$ belong to the $\ell^\alpha$ norm closure of $\hat E.$ So, there exists a sequence $t_j\geq0,$ and a sequence $p_j\in E,$ such that $u _j:=t _j\ p_j$ converges to $u$ in $\ell^\alpha.$ If $u=0$ then $u\in \hat E$ and there's nothing to prove; otherwise we have (for large $j$) that $p _j / | p _j | _\alpha = u _j / | u _j | _\alpha $ which converges in $\ell^\alpha$ to $u/|u| _\alpha.$ Hence $p^'_j:=\big(p _j/|p _j | _\alpha\big)^\alpha$ converges in $\ell^1$ to $\big(u/|u | _\alpha\big)^\alpha, $ showing that the latter belongs to $E^'$, which is $|\cdot| _1$-closed. This implies that for some $p\in E,$ $u$ has the form $\frac{|u| _\alpha}{|p| _\alpha} p,$ so is in $\hat E$.

Now consider $v:=\big(q/|q| _\alpha\big)^{\alpha-1}.$ It is a norm-one element of the dual space $\ell^{\alpha'},$ and your optimization problem can be rewritten as $$s:=\sup _{p\in E}\big(\frac{p}{|p| _\alpha}\cdot v \big) =\sup _{u\in\hat E} (u\cdot v),$$ that is attained by the weak compactness of $\hat E.$

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WillieWong comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10079) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10079#Comment_10079 2010-11-01T16:46:16-07:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 WillieWong http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/288/ @pietro majer: it is my impression that once a question received an answer, the original asker of the question can no longer delete the question. So if any deletion did happen, either you posted only ... @pietro majer: it is my impression that once a question received an answer, the original asker of the question can no longer delete the question. So if any deletion did happen, either you posted only as a comment, or the mods decided to delete the question for whatever reason.

Someone with access to moderator tools maybe able to address your question.

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pietro majer comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10066) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10066#Comment_10066 2010-11-01T11:38:13-07:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 pietro majer http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/351/ Hi! I think I've recently answered a question by user Ashok... Since she/he is asking now a close question, I'd like to check the previous answer, but there's no trace of it... Well' I suppose I'd ... PS: so, if possible, I'd like that that post were restored, since it may be of iterest to other people too...

PPS: thanks everybody. It seems that Ashok deleted that material "for some reason". Actually I don't get it, but it's certainly his/her right do do it, according to the MO current policy, since deletion of questions is a possible option.
Actually, I'm a bit puzzled about this: is it a good thing that one can delete a question together with other people's contributions? After thinking, I tend to think that it should be more constructive to put as a condition the permission of the administrators and of the other people involved.
(compare with the Wikipedia editing policy: "You irrevocably agree to release your contributions... etc")
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davidk01 comments on "When to close, when to delete" (915) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=915#Comment_915 2009-12-09T23:59:45-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 davidk01 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/71/ I have a high opinion of Anton. He is pretty level headed when it comes to moderation issues. Scott Morrison comments on "When to close, when to delete" (910) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=910#Comment_910 2009-12-09T22:06:40-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Scott Morrison http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/3/ @davidk01 I think I'm in agreement with the other moderators in saying that we're quite pleased to see that by moderating heavily in the early days, we've managed to ensure that the "aggregate ... @davidk01

I think I'm in agreement with the other moderators in saying that we're quite pleased to see that by moderating heavily in the early days, we've managed to ensure that the "aggregate attitude of its participants" agrees pretty well with our own ideas. :-) After all, MO was started for entirely selfish reasons -- Anton wanted a community of people eager to answer his questions!

Nevertheless, I acknowledge your request for moderate moderation.

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davidk01 comments on "When to close, when to delete" (906) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=906#Comment_906 2009-12-09T19:37:22-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 davidk01 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/71/ I advise restraint on the part of moderators. It is desirable to have a self-moderating community and one that reflects the aggregate attitude of its participants. If moderators intervene too often ... Anton Geraschenko comments on "When to close, when to delete" (859) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=859#Comment_859 2009-12-08T19:48:19-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ If a post is deleted, the reputation (positive or negative) disappears, but not instantly. If there's some problem (e.g. somebody has gained enough rep to be a nuisance), a moderator can manually ... If a post is deleted, the reputation (positive or negative) disappears, but not instantly. If there's some problem (e.g. somebody has gained enough rep to be a nuisance), a moderator can manually trigger a rep recalculation. For example, I just triggered a rep recalculation for fpqc, which brought his rep up from 281 to 286.

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David Speyer comments on "When to close, when to delete" (842) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=842#Comment_842 2009-12-08T13:14:25-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 David Speyer http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/23/ Regarding the "list of questions in moderation": Aren't the questions with negative votes a very good approximation? Regarding the "list of questions in moderation": Aren't the questions with negative votes a very good approximation?

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Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "When to close, when to delete" (841) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=841#Comment_841 2009-12-08T12:39:08-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ilya Nikokoshev http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/22/ @Andrew, I think it's a great idea to have a public list of "currently in moderation" questions. Splitting an account in two doesn't look like a good idea since it would confuse some users ... @Andrew, I think it's a great idea to have a public list of "currently in moderation" questions.

Splitting an account in two doesn't look like a good idea since it would confuse some users and encourage others to have several accounts as well, which goes against the net etiquette.

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (830) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=830#Comment_830 2009-12-08T06:57:58-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ No, what I meant was that since you delete the topic, it does not appear in your post history. That way, if I've posted a terrible question and my reputation sinks down to 1, I can just delete the ... Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (829) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=829#Comment_829 2009-12-08T06:42:12-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ben Webster http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/21/ I think that meant fpqc wasn't sure if you would get back any rep you lost from it being voted down, or from voting the questions or answers down. I think that meant fpqc wasn't sure if you would get back any rep you lost from it being voted down, or from voting the questions or answers down.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "When to close, when to delete" (827) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=827#Comment_827 2009-12-08T06:24:35-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Not sure that negative rep is technically possible. I've just posted a question on meta.SE about that. Not sure that negative rep is technically possible. I've just posted a question on meta.SE about that.

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (826) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=826#Comment_826 2009-12-08T06:02:35-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ I've deleted a lot of my own questions, and nothing happens. Your rep remains entirely preserved. However if you have negative rep, I don't know if it will preserve that. Andrew Stacey comments on "When to close, when to delete" (823) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=823#Comment_823 2009-12-08T03:07:41-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Couldn't find the answer to this one on meta.SE, maybe someone has better search skills than I do. If a question is deleted, what happens to the rep? As an example, consider this question which ... Couldn't find the answer to this one on meta.SE, maybe someone has better search skills than I do.

If a question is deleted, what happens to the rep? As an example, consider this question which I've just voted to close. Within the hour of it being asked, it got an answer which was accepted. The answerer now has 16 rep, enough to start voting. The asker has 3 rep, not so much. If this question just gets closed, I presume that these reps stay as they are. This might be a case for deletion.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "When to close, when to delete" (822) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=822#Comment_822 2009-12-08T00:19:13-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ @Ben: I proposed a solution to this on another thread somewhere around here, though I don't know how well it would work: split your account into two. Have a "normal user" account (with all ... @Ben: I proposed a solution to this on another thread somewhere around here, though I don't know how well it would work: split your account into two. Have a "normal user" account (with all the accumulated rep that you have) and a "moderator" account. Use the "normal user" account for almost everything and only use the "moderator" account when you really need to. I don't know if this is possible, but if it is then it would solve that problem.

More generally, since there's no-one yet with 10000 rep, the only people with access to the lists are the moderators. As someone with 3000 rep, I have most of the powers of a moderator but don't have the ability to selectively use those abilities because I don't have access to the lists. So I can't quickly scan through a list of questions that others have thought worthy of being closed and decide whether or not to add my voice to the list. I have to do it the hard way by going through every question. I'm not going to do that as it just takes too long. So maybe while there aren't any (or many) people with at least 10000 rep, perhaps we should have a thread here so that when someone votes to close a question then they mention it here and others with 3000 rep can go and see if they agree. Also, it can be used by those who don't have enough rep to vote to close but who would like to bring something to the attention of those who do (rather than just the moderators).

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Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "When to close, when to delete" (809) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=809#Comment_809 2009-12-07T13:34:41-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ilya Nikokoshev http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/22/ can I do this somehow? Well, there's always a back-up option of starting a thread on meta!

can I do this somehow?

Well, there's always a back-up option of starting a thread on meta!

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (798) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=798#Comment_798 2009-12-06T21:30:32-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ A question that achieves a score of, say, -10, should be automatically closed, no? Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (796) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=796#Comment_796 2009-12-06T21:10:21-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ben Webster http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/21/ @David- Yes, there are times when I wish I could vote to delete a question rather than just deleting it (question: can I do this somehow?), just so that I could express my opinion, but also require ... @David- Yes, there are times when I wish I could vote to delete a question rather than just deleting it (question: can I do this somehow?), just so that I could express my opinion, but also require some consensus.

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Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (795) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=795#Comment_795 2009-12-06T21:09:10-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ben Webster http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/21/ @Ilya- As far as I know, we have never deleted a good faith answer to a question (the only deleted answer I remember was a joke about Turing's sexual orientation). The ones you pointed out just ... @Ilya- As far as I know, we have never deleted a good faith answer to a question (the only deleted answer I remember was a joke about Turing's sexual orientation). The ones you pointed out just never had any answers. I'm sure you've all seen what kind of questions get closed. The ones that have been deleted were ones that were on the level of "Was Serge Lang gay?"

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David Speyer comments on "When to close, when to delete" (794) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=794#Comment_794 2009-12-06T18:36:46-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 David Speyer http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/23/ I'd be OK with fpqc's policy if people weren't so trigger-happy about marking things as homework. Here are a collection of questions which were suspected of being homework, but strike me a reasonable ... I'd be OK with fpqc's policy if people weren't so trigger-happy about marking things as homework. Here are a collection of questions which were suspected of being homework, but strike me a reasonable questions for someone to invent for themselves.

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/3471/are-the-asymptotics-of-fourier-coefficients-to-periodic-solutions-of-ode-known

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/1828/is-an-nth-root-of-unity-a-square

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/6718/how-many-vertices-do-i-need-before-i-get-n-independent-edges

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/6895/unbounded-countable-subset

This weekend brought a flood of dripping, blatant homework questions. If we could agree on a standard for things that are atrociously homework, I'd be fine with deleting them and all their answers.

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (785) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=785#Comment_785 2009-12-06T10:29:31-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ People should be encouraged to downvote any answers to clearly inappropriate questions. If you answer the question, you don't teach the lesson. Then, such answers should be deleted. Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "When to close, when to delete" (784) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=784#Comment_784 2009-12-06T10:27:40-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ilya Nikokoshev http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/22/ Would it be possible to collect the examples? In the format of the form What happened to Clay Liftoff?, closed answers deleted (?), thread on meta, my POV -- closed + answers deleted linear algebra ... Would it be possible to collect the examples? In the format of the form

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Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (783) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=783#Comment_783 2009-12-06T10:13:43-08:00 2018-11-04T23:23:51-08:00 Ben Webster http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/21/ I think we need to have a serious discussion about what the appropriate action with inappropriate posts is. As I see it, there are roughly 3 options: Close the question, and do nothing else. Close ... I think we need to have a serious discussion about what the appropriate action with inappropriate posts is. As I see it, there are roughly 3 options:

  1. Close the question, and do nothing else.
  2. Close the question, and delete the answers.
  3. Delete the question.

At the moment, our policy seems to be: 1 for all posts which seem to be good faith or HW, 3 for "trolling" (spam/abusive) posts, but we haven't carefully formulated one. I'm starting this read in hopes we will.

At this point, I have to wonder if we shouldn't start being more severe and deleting more questions.

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