tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Inappropriate language) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:17:32 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Anton Geraschenko comments on "Inappropriate language" (6628) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6628#Comment_6628 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6628#Comment_6628 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:13:44 -0700 Anton Geraschenko I'm closing this thread now. Rather than deleting the whole thread, I was thinking of simply deleting all the comments below a certain point (I'm not sure exactly what point). If you have an opinion about this, email moderators@mathoverflow.net.

Tangentially related, there's a new section of the FAQ: Where's the rule that says I have to wear pants?.

Update: At least one person has emailed objecting to any moderator deletions in this thread. I may be wrong, but I don't really see much harm in leaving the thread up. Aside from Dustin making himself out to be a troll (perhaps unintentionally), I don't think anybody embarrassed themselves. If you want me to delete or edit any of your own comments, email me directly and I'll happily do it.

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Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6627) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6627#Comment_6627 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6627#Comment_6627 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:10:16 -0700 Andy Putman DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6626) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6626#Comment_6626 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6626#Comment_6626 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:09:23 -0700 DL Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6625) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6625#Comment_6625 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6625#Comment_6625 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:07:57 -0700 Andy Putman
The real reason I want this thread deleted is the reason Noah mentioned. Namely, that it makes MO look unprofessional. ]]>
Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6624) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6624#Comment_6624 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6624#Comment_6624 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:07:03 -0700 Dustin Clausen DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6623) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6623#Comment_6623 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6623#Comment_6623 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:05:38 -0700 DL Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6622) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6622#Comment_6622 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6622#Comment_6622 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:02:06 -0700 Dustin Clausen Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6621) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6621#Comment_6621 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6621#Comment_6621 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:01:05 -0700 Andy Putman Noah Snyder comments on "Inappropriate language" (6620) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6620#Comment_6620 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6620#Comment_6620 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:00:13 -0700 Noah Snyder DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6619) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6619#Comment_6619 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6619#Comment_6619 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:57:19 -0700 DL Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6618) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6618#Comment_6618 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6618#Comment_6618 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:56:29 -0700 Dustin Clausen Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6617) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6617#Comment_6617 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6617#Comment_6617 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:51:57 -0700 Andy Putman Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6616) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6616#Comment_6616 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6616#Comment_6616 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:50:22 -0700 Dustin Clausen Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6615) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6615#Comment_6615 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6615#Comment_6615 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:48:47 -0700 Dustin Clausen Noah Snyder comments on "Inappropriate language" (6614) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6614#Comment_6614 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6614#Comment_6614 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:48:21 -0700 Noah Snyder Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6613) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6613#Comment_6613 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6613#Comment_6613 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:37:42 -0700 Dustin Clausen Noah Snyder comments on "Inappropriate language" (6611) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6611#Comment_6611 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6611#Comment_6611 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 12:52:18 -0700 Noah Snyder Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6608) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6608#Comment_6608 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6608#Comment_6608 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 12:21:38 -0700 Andy Putman
One remark I should make is that I certainly have been known to curse or make double entendres in private, among people who I know well and who won't be offended. I just think that this is inappropriate in public forums like MO and in professional environments. My feeling here is especially fervent with respect to double entendres -- I think they reinforce the perception of math as a boy's club in which women are not welcome. ]]>
DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6606) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6606#Comment_6606 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6606#Comment_6606 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:57:49 -0700 DL
On a more pleasant note, I just remembered that I recently ran across your preprint "Obtaining presentations from group actions without making choices" while googling for something or other, and I enjoyed it a great deal.

By the way, while I'm relatively new to MO, I feel like this thread is getting a bit more personal than I would have expected. So as a gesture of friendliness, I'll let you have the last word in this exchange.

@Dustin: While I obviously have no objection to swearing, the fact that other users do is probably a good reason not to do so, regardless of what their reasons are for objecting, as Yemon Choi points out. (Feel free to swear via email, however.) ]]>
Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6604) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6604#Comment_6604 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6604#Comment_6604 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:51:22 -0700 Dustin Clausen Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6603) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6603#Comment_6603 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6603#Comment_6603 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:40:35 -0700 Andy Putman Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6602) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6602#Comment_6602 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6602#Comment_6602 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:30:20 -0700 Andy Putman Yemon Choi comments on "Inappropriate language" (6599) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6599#Comment_6599 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6599#Comment_6599 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:20:12 -0700 Yemon Choi Kevin Buzzard said:

Now I have kids I never swear in public, even when my kids aren't around. Perhaps it's called getting older. But my point is that it's not just about what you think---it's about what everyone around you thinks too and you have to take on board the fact that some people might think differently. That's why people care about this.

Andy Putman said:

@Dustin : I don't think a desire to "shock the prudes" is a sufficient reason to lower the level of civility on MO. Most people grow out of this desire by the time they leave their teenage years...

+100 each. It's all about levels/modes of discourse, surely? I don't take any offence when one of my friends and colleagues swears liberally as emotional punctuation in discussing maths or the business of maths, whether over coffee or beer -- as I do, and as many of us probably do to varying extents. That isn't a reason to do it on MO, because as Kevin says there are people who find it inappropriate, and it is hardly a great effort not to swear while writing an answer, surely?

(See also my old grousing that MO is not a pub. Speaking as someone who likes maths, and likes pubs.)

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Harry Gindi comments on "Inappropriate language" (6595) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6595#Comment_6595 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6595#Comment_6595 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:45:05 -0700 Harry Gindi

Andy, my goal was not to shock, as I tried to explain above. And I don't think I lowered the level of civility on MO, either; my "fuck" was not an angry "fuck" -- it was a joyous "fuck", full of tenderness, as you would see were my comment not deleted.

giggle

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DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6594) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6594#Comment_6594 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6594#Comment_6594 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:37:16 -0700 DL
Just for clarity's sake, I'll spell out my interpretation of the question I asked: Why call such well-behaved objects "perverse"? (If they were clearly pathological, I would not have asked the question in the first place, since the answer would be obvious.) None of the other answers even attempted to address this concern, really. While Dustin's answer is certainly speculation, it does address the question in the sense I intended it.

And don't you think there's something mysterious about Grothendieck's claim that: "It is evident that of all the ‘things’ in the universe, we humans are the only ones to whom this term ['perverse'] could ever apply."?

@Dustin: Now that I know that your comment was joyous and full of tenderness, I am both flattered and uncomfortable. ]]>
Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6593) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6593#Comment_6593 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6593#Comment_6593 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:35:16 -0700 Dustin Clausen Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6592) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6592#Comment_6592 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6592#Comment_6592 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:23:29 -0700 Andy Putman DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6590) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6590#Comment_6590 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6590#Comment_6590 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:16:31 -0700 DL Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6589) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6589#Comment_6589 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6589#Comment_6589 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:09:09 -0700 Andy Putman
@Daniel : The answer had very little to do with the origin of the name "perverse sheaf". My feeling is that it was entirely off-topic. ]]>
Noah Snyder comments on "Inappropriate language" (6588) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6588#Comment_6588 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6588#Comment_6588 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:01:36 -0700 Noah Snyder DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6586) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6586#Comment_6586 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6586#Comment_6586 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 09:52:37 -0700 DL Mariano comments on "Inappropriate language" (6585) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6585#Comment_6585 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6585#Comment_6585 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 09:45:58 -0700 Mariano I always prefer that people think badly of me over important things.

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Noah Snyder comments on "Inappropriate language" (6584) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6584#Comment_6584 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6584#Comment_6584 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 09:37:17 -0700 Noah Snyder
But anyway, I wouldn't swear on MO for exactly the reason that you don't know who's reading and I wouldn't want people to think badly of me over something unimportant. But for this reason I think the best response is not a censorship policy but instead a comment complaining which people can vote up. When people see that lots of people are bothered then I'd expect them to change their behavior, while censorship may have the opposite effect. ]]>
DL comments on "Inappropriate language" (6583) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6583#Comment_6583 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6583#Comment_6583 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 09:32:43 -0700 DL supercooldave comments on "Inappropriate language" (6581) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6581#Comment_6581 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6581#Comment_6581 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:36:26 -0700 supercooldave Harry Gindi comments on "Inappropriate language" (6575) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6575#Comment_6575 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6575#Comment_6575 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 07:30:08 -0700 Harry Gindi I'm tempted to type out a line from south park the movie. Those of you who have seen it should be able to recall which scene it is.

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Dustin Clausen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6574) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6574#Comment_6574 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6574#Comment_6574 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 07:15:02 -0700 Dustin Clausen Wadim Zudilin comments on "Inappropriate language" (6565) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6565#Comment_6565 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6565#Comment_6565 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 03:19:10 -0700 Wadim Zudilin Kevin Buzzard comments on "Inappropriate language" (6564) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6564#Comment_6564 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6564#Comment_6564 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 02:51:53 -0700 Kevin Buzzard Jeremy comments on "Inappropriate language" (6562) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6562#Comment_6562 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6562#Comment_6562 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 01:15:42 -0700 Jeremy alex_o comments on "Inappropriate language" (6561) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6561#Comment_6561 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6561#Comment_6561 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 00:27:24 -0700 alex_o
No, definitely not aware. Please explain? ]]>
VP comments on "Inappropriate language" (6558) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6558#Comment_6558 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6558#Comment_6558 Thu, 01 Jul 2010 00:02:58 -0700 VP Well, the comment isn't there any more, so the situation has been resolved.

@Anton: That is exactly what I thought (that the question disappeared, so the problem was no more). I also immediately thought of seminars: in more than 20 years, I don't recall hearing swearing ever at a math talk. As I search my memory, all I can come up with is one corny joke a conference speaker made that left a number of people upset.

@Noah: A more appropriate analogy would be if someone carved that word on the wall of the department tea room for all to enjoy for a long time. Also, are you aware that this specific word is considered demeaning to women?

@Andy: I think it's a rare enough occurrence not to codify the response, but it sets a bad precedent.

@Grétar and Mariano: The fact that we are all adults on a website doesn't make into an adult website. Should we expect strong language in questions themselves now? I mean, we are all adults and math can be frustrating, right? I agree with you that asking your buddy to accept an answer (and in this case, not particularly relevant or mathematical answer) looks bad, but one issue at a time.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "Inappropriate language" (6557) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6557#Comment_6557 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6557#Comment_6557 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:38:30 -0700 Anton Geraschenko When I saw VP's moderator flag, the answer had been deleted by the owner, so I didn't do anything about it, not realizing that it might be undeleted later. If the answer hadn't been deleted, I think I would have deleted it (the comment, not the answer) and sent an email to the comment owner. While I don't think we should have any hard rules about language, my overarching philosophy is that people should treat MO like a large seminar. You don't have to be uptight to attend a seminar, but you are expected to exhibit a certain minimum level of professionalism. You (almost?) don't ever swear to get your point across in a paper or a talk; I don't see why you should ever need to swear on MO. It seems like there is real potential cost to people swearing on MO, but I can't think of any real benefit to it.

@Noah: The difference is that if someone says "fuck" at tea, it's because they know exactly who they're speaking with. I would be pretty surprised if someone was casually swearing at tea regardless of who was standing around listening.

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Noah Snyder comments on "Inappropriate language" (6554) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6554#Comment_6554 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6554#Comment_6554 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:08:02 -0700 Noah Snyder Andy Putman comments on "Inappropriate language" (6548) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6548#Comment_6548 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6548#Comment_6548 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:18:25 -0700 Andy Putman Mariano comments on "Inappropriate language" (6547) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6547#Comment_6547 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6547#Comment_6547 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:30:40 -0700 Mariano Heh. Indeed: the second comment seemed to me way more out of place than the first one :)

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Grétar Amazeen comments on "Inappropriate language" (6546) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6546#Comment_6546 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6546#Comment_6546 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:29:22 -0700 Grétar Amazeen +1 Mariano. I agree, it doesn't bother me one bit to see the word 'fuck' ones in a while, I mean we're all adults here right? In my opinion the next comment by that user is much more borderline. It reads "hey, accept my answer, old time's sake."

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Mariano comments on "Inappropriate language" (6543) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6543#Comment_6543 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6543#Comment_6543 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:13:40 -0700 Mariano I read the comment more or less right after it was posted, and while it surprised me, yet I thought that although I would not use that language, an expletive here and there, specially among adults, does not make a sailor's club.

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VP comments on "Inappropriate language" (6541) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6541#Comment_6541 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/483/inappropriate-language/?Focus=6541#Comment_6541 Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:47:21 -0700 VP I was shocked to see the four-letter word in the first comment to this question, by the answering person himself. Why do we tolerate such language? I thought this was a site for mathematics professionals, not a children's playground or a sailor's club. (The conversation in the comments also suggests an attempt at gaming the reputation system.)

A bit of history: I flagged the comment for moderator attention, shortly afterward the answer disappeared, but it has reappeared since, with the comment intact. I also don't understand the upvotes: are these genuine signs of support or instances of people misclicking while trying to flag it?

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