tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed ("mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information") Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:14:44 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Tim van Beek comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12463) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12463#Comment_12463 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12463#Comment_12463 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 03:14:07 -0800 Tim van Beek Any luck in persuading the stackexchange people yet, Andrew?

:-)

Anixx said: "This is completely physical/natural sciences question."

Right, but as peterwshor said, there are rigorous frameworks for quantum field theory, for example the Haag-Kastler axioms. A quantum field theory is described by a net of operator algebras on a suitable spacetime. Physical states correspond to certain states of the algebras, and the concept of entropy has been generalized to the noncommutative context, too, for example by Connes et alt. A mathematical question that is related to the original question would therefore be if there are any results about the entropy of operator algebras of Haag-Kastler nets (like a bound of the entropy of states with finite expectation value of the Hamiltonian depending on the volume where the state differs from the identity), although I bet that such a question would not be answered :-)

]]>
Andrew Stacey comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12461) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12461#Comment_12461 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12461#Comment_12461 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:04:22 -0800 Andrew Stacey Yes, wouldn't it be good if the stackexchange people could be persuaded to set up a site for Physics questions. Maybe they could call it http://physics.stackexchange.com.

]]>
Anixx comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12459) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12459#Comment_12459 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12459#Comment_12459 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 22:15:04 -0800 Anixx peterwshor comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12458) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12458#Comment_12458 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12458#Comment_12458 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 20:18:37 -0800 peterwshor You probably aren't going to get a rigorous proof of the Bekenstein bound, because nobody has a mathematically well-defined theory of quantum gravity. However, some quantum field theories are mathematically well-defined, so given a quantum field theory, it seems to me you should be able to bound the amount of information that exists in a finite volume with a given energy. That's what I'd like to see.

]]>
Tim van Beek comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12454) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12454#Comment_12454 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12454#Comment_12454 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:22:11 -0800 Tim van Beek Pete L. Clark comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12452) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12452#Comment_12452 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12452#Comment_12452 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:25:44 -0800 Pete L. Clark @Dan Petersen: as you might have suspected from my phrasing, I consciously left room for someone to point me to an academic who felt differently. Thank you for doing so.

I still think it is fair to say that this is a decidedly minority view.

]]>
peterwshor comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12451) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12451#Comment_12451 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12451#Comment_12451 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 07:50:42 -0800 peterwshor @Mariano: sorry for misinterpreting your comment. I'm too busy to fix the question (or write my own question) right now, but maybe in a week or so.

]]>
Georges Elencwajg comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12450) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12450#Comment_12450 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12450#Comment_12450 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 05:45:55 -0800 Georges Elencwajg dan petersen comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12449) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12449#Comment_12449 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12449#Comment_12449 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 01:43:17 -0800 dan petersen Pete L. Clark comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12448) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12448#Comment_12448 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12448#Comment_12448 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 00:49:49 -0800 Pete L. Clark I agree with Ryan. I am very far from an expert here, but my take on "You cannot prove propositions about the universe" is that it is rather self-evident. As I understand the terms, what you can prove propositions about are mathematical objects. I am not aware of any philosopher or physicist within the last 100 years who has believed that the universe is a mathematical object.

Professor Shor asks another question: "Do all questions on MathOverflow have to be stated in the language of mathematics?"

Speaking personally, this is the only language I am comfortable using when discussing mathematical questions. I tend not to even read questions which sound like physics (or some other science) rather than mathematics, so I rarely vote to close them. But for the sake of discussion: is there anything wrong with requiring all MO questions to be stated in the language of mathematics? What desirable content would be excluded by doing so?

]]>
Ryan Budney comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12447) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12447#Comment_12447 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12447#Comment_12447 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 19:24:05 -0800 Ryan Budney Mariano comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12446) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12446#Comment_12446 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12446#Comment_12446 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 18:30:17 -0800 Mariano I cannot read that comment in that sense---and I surely did not write it in that sense, either!

My comment was a reaction to the title, mostly, and I'd say the same thing is someone asked the less elaborate "how can we prove that things fall?". My, hmmm, epistemological nerve got hit.

]]>
peterwshor comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12445) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12445#Comment_12445 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12445#Comment_12445 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 18:16:00 -0800 peterwshor I should do that ... this question is probably too badly formulated to save. I guess what upset me was the comment "You cannot prove propositions about the universe," which got a number of upvotes, and pretty much implies that no physics can be in scope for this site. I hope that not too many people agree with that.

]]>
deane.yang comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12440) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12440#Comment_12440 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12440#Comment_12440 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 13:55:05 -0800 deane.yang peterwshor comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12438) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12438#Comment_12438 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12438#Comment_12438 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 10:53:56 -0800 peterwshor Agreed: it could use a lot of cleaning up. The data compression stuff is completely irrelevant, and the lack of any mention of quantum mechanics (which is the only thing makes the information content finite) is a serious flaw.

]]>
Scott Carnahan comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12437) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12437#Comment_12437 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12437#Comment_12437 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 10:48:15 -0800 Scott Carnahan I think the question could use some cleaning up by someone who knows some information theory. For example, the bits about data compression look like they could be safely removed. I'd vote to reopen if my vote weren't all-powerful.

]]>
peterwshor comments on ""mathematical justification ... that the universe contains a finite amount of information"" (12436) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12436#Comment_12436 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/887/mathematical-justification-that-the-universe-contains-a-finite-amount-of-information/?Focus=12436#Comment_12436 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 10:38:48 -0800 peterwshor The question: Is there a mathematical justification/proof for the claim that the universe contains a finite amount of information? was recently closed. There's an interesting question (or at least one I'd like to get the answer to) related to this: under what circumstances does a state of a quantum field theory contain a finite amount of quantum information?

Just because a question is conveyed in the language of physics doesn't mean that it's not interesting mathematically. Do all questions on MathOverflow have to be stated in the language of mathematics? I voted to reopen, but I'd like to see what the community thinks.

]]>