tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (sick of typing mathbf/mathbb) 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Andrew Stacey comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (11603) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=11603#Comment_11603 2010-12-10T00:13:28-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Harry, I'm pleased to hear that as it means we don't have to break you of more bad habits. Relevant links: http://tex.stackexchange.com/q/1166/86 http://tex.stackexchange.com/q/503/86 ... Harry, I'm pleased to hear that as it means we don't have to break you of more bad habits.

Relevant links: http://tex.stackexchange.com/q/1166/86 http://tex.stackexchange.com/q/503/86 http://tex.stackexchange.com/q/510/86

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Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (11589) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=11589#Comment_11589 2010-12-09T17:10:54-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ Yes, of course, and I always start my math with \( and my displays with \[... Yes, of course, and I always start my math with \( and my displays with \[...

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Mariano comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (11586) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=11586#Comment_11586 2010-12-09T15:16:46-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Mariano http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/61/ Aren't those demodé nowadays? I think you should all be using \textbf, \mathbf and so on... :) Aren't those demodé nowadays? I think you should all be using \textbf, \mathbf and so on... :)

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Sam Nead comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (11585) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=11585#Comment_11585 2010-12-09T15:00:30-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Sam Nead http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/41/ I also have had problems with \bb. Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (11165) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=11165#Comment_11165 2010-11-30T19:25:05-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ By the way, \bf, \cal, and \scr without brackets now apply the font to the entire display. Further, \bb seems not to be working. By the way, \bf, \cal, and \scr without brackets now apply the font to the entire display. Further, \bb seems not to be working.

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Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10997) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10997#Comment_10997 2010-11-23T04:17:13-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ Somebody's wrong on the internet. Somebody's wrong on the internet.

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Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10990) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10990#Comment_10990 2010-11-23T03:03:38-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ @David: that's at least the 3rd time that that particular xkcd cartoon has been linked to in meta over the last two weeks or so. @Jose: Am I CONSING yet? José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10977) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10977#Comment_10977 2010-11-22T14:31:22-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ @David It's certainly technologically linkable, but it has been linked to so many times, that I thought it socially undesirable to do so. @Kevin: Yow! :) @David It's certainly technologically linkable, but it has been linked to so many times, that I thought it socially undesirable to do so.

@Kevin: Yow! :)

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David Speyer comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10976) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10976#Comment_10976 2010-11-22T14:30:01-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 David Speyer http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/23/ By the way, xkcd is linkable By the way, xkcd is linkable

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Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10971) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10971#Comment_10971 2010-11-22T13:47:14-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ @Jos\'e: rather than rehash the xkcd comic you could remind us of the quote (I forget who to attribute it to now) "I would never use an editor that doesn't have a psychoanalyze-pinhead ... Andrew Stacey comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10957) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10957#Comment_10957 2010-11-22T06:32:17-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ José: I wasn't sure. My point, nonetheless, was that reconfiguring one's keyboard to a more suitable TeX-mode needn't involve a great deal of relearning. However, this isn't the place to ... José: I wasn't sure. My point, nonetheless, was that reconfiguring one's keyboard to a more suitable TeX-mode needn't involve a great deal of relearning. However, this isn't the place to go into it in detail: I wrote quite an extensive answer at the tex.SX question I linked to (including what, for me, was the killer reason to reconfigure). Indeed, I now have three keyboard layouts: "normal", "TeX", and "bokmål", for when I'm typing in the corresponding language. So long as I remember which I'm in, I find that the "finger memory" works just fine. For example, right now I'm in "TeX mode" so typing \usepackage{lipsum} is as easy as \pi, but typing 123 requires the shift key.

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José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10956) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10956#Comment_10956 2010-11-22T06:01:49-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ Andrew: I was using QWERTY as a generic name for the "standard" such keyboard. I agree that most of the pain comes from non-letters. I've been hesitant to remap the keyboard for a number ... Andrew: I was using QWERTY as a generic name for the "standard" such keyboard. I agree that most of the pain comes from non-letters. I've been hesitant to remap the keyboard for a number of reasons, but perhaps I should give it a try.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10955) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10955#Comment_10955 2010-11-22T05:08:31-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Since xkcd is unlinkable, I'll go to the opposite extreme and link to this tex.SX question just in case anyone seriously wants to know about reconfiguring their keyboard more appropriately for TeX. ... Since xkcd is unlinkable, I'll go to the opposite extreme and link to this tex.SX question just in case anyone seriously wants to know about reconfiguring their keyboard more appropriately for TeX. And I would say that Jose's comment about QWERTY-synapses isn't so relevant as most reconfigurations don't touch the letter keys, just the numbers and symbols which (I found) aren't so hard-wired into the brain.

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José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10954) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10954#Comment_10954 2010-11-22T05:00:25-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ @Willie: I would link to the obligatory xkcd comic now, but I think that particular comic has been "overlinked" already... @Willie: I would link to the obligatory xkcd comic now, but I think that particular comic has been "overlinked" already...

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WillieWong comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10953) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10953#Comment_10953 2010-11-22T04:49:41-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 WillieWong http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/288/ Well, having emacs hardwired in the brain is not that difficult, you just need to hit C-x M-c M-cybernetic_implant... Well, having emacs hardwired in the brain is not that difficult, you just need to hit C-x M-c M-cybernetic_implant...

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José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10952) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10952#Comment_10952 2010-11-22T04:28:57-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ Doesn't everyone have their keyboard configured to make TeX easier to type? The problem is not configuring the keyboard, but reconfiguring the neural synapses after years of using QWERTY keyboards. ...

Doesn't everyone have their keyboard configured to make TeX easier to type?

The problem is not configuring the keyboard, but reconfiguring the neural synapses after years of using QWERTY keyboards. Having said that, Emacs makes it virtually painless to type (LaTeX) code and luckily I have emacs hardwired in the brain :)

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Andrew Stacey comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10950) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10950#Comment_10950 2010-11-22T03:35:47-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ (I'm going to have a look at the MathJaX documentation before commenting any further. It depends on whether the documentation is, as Harald suggests, focussed on the differences between MJ and ... (I'm going to have a look at the MathJaX documentation before commenting any further. It depends on whether the documentation is, as Harald suggests, focussed on the differences between MJ and LaTeX, or is purely about MathJaX as a standalone application. I freely admit that I know very little about MathJaX, being convinced that the best solutions are server-side, not client-side - one of the reasons being that feature-creap (such as adding extra macros) makes a big difference when done client-side but almost no difference server-side.)

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WillieWong comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10949) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10949#Comment_10949 2010-11-22T03:34:56-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 WillieWong http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/288/ To second Harald's remark: while I've never typed \mathbb without braces, I've always typed \frac1p without the braces. And also usually $\hat\alpha$ etc when it comes to Greek letters. So at least ... To second Harald's remark: while I've never typed \mathbb without braces, I've always typed \frac1p without the braces. And also usually $\hat\alpha$ etc when it comes to Greek letters. So at least anecdotally the MathJax behaviour reflects normal LaTeX usage.

I do think Andrew's point about speed is a very valid one. Every once in a while MathJax hangs so long that Firefox wonders aloud whether the script has stopped responding; I really don't want it to happen even more often.

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Harald Hanche-Olsen comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10948) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10948#Comment_10948 2010-11-22T02:54:54-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harald Hanche-Olsen http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/18/ I am pretty sure I have been typing stuff like \frac 1n on MO without thinking much about it. And I suspect that enough people are used to such shortcuts that for mathjax to ignore this aspect of ... I am pretty sure I have been typing stuff like \frac 1n on MO without thinking much about it. And I suspect that enough people are used to such shortcuts that for mathjax to ignore this aspect of TeX's macro argument parsing would border on the perverse. Any documentation on mathjax should focus on the differences between mathjax and latex, not the similarities.

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AgCl_ comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10947) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10947#Comment_10947 2010-11-22T02:42:50-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 AgCl_ http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/344/ But there isn't anything in the documentation that says braces are required, either. I think some syntax which is standard in Latex doesn't require additional documentation. Andrew Stacey comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10946) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10946#Comment_10946 2010-11-22T02:36:58-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ I'd still like to have something from the official documentation since (unlikely though this is) if it's undocumented then it might disappear in a future version. I'd still like to have something from the official documentation since (unlikely though this is) if it's undocumented then it might disappear in a future version.

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AgCl_ comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10945) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10945#Comment_10945 2010-11-22T02:18:06-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 AgCl_ http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/344/ Andrew Stacey: No problem, sorry about the anonymity. I didn't see any note about this in MathJax's documentation, but a quick search revealed that many users on MO are already using \mathbb without ...
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/20144/
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/36976
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/23098/
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/22140/

(These questions have instances of this in their titles. Latex sources can be seen by right clicking on the equations.)]]>
Harald Hanche-Olsen comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10944) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10944#Comment_10944 2010-11-22T00:05:26-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harald Hanche-Olsen http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/18/ If we go for #3, I think I'd prefer the \ZZ style for blackboard bold, since it mimics the way we write these. (I have recently switched from \bbZ in my own writing.) If we go for #3, I think I'd prefer the \ZZ style for blackboard bold, since it mimics the way we write these. (I have recently switched from \bbZ in my own writing.)

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Andrew Stacey comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10943) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10943#Comment_10943 2010-11-22T00:00:04-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ My name was invoked and, like the incantation, draws me hence. I'd like a speed test before the decision between 2 and 3 is made. I suspect that either possible implementation of 3 (that Scott ... My name was invoked and, like the incantation, draws me hence.

I'd like a speed test before the decision between 2 and 3 is made. I suspect that either possible implementation of 3 (that Scott mentions) will be significantly slower than 2. MathJaX is not so fast that it is unnoticeable, I still load a page, watch all the squiggles disappear, and slowly reappear as rendered mathematics. If the shortcuts significantly add to the page load, I would argue against them. Assuming that MathJaX behaves like LaTeX and that braces are not required except for grouping (can someone confirm that this is indeed the case? And point to the relevant piece of MathJaX documentation? Apologies to AgCl for doubting, but given that I doubt he/she was named "Silver Chloride" then I would like more evidence than anon's word.), then there is hardly any difference between \bb Z and \bbZ. One could avoid the confusion over \bf by defining it to be \mbf, but I wouldn't worry about the confusion too much as there are enough differences between what one types here and normal LaTeX that everyone should be on their guard for discrepancies. It's not as if you can take an answer here and send it straight to tex without any post-processing.

(Not that typing braces should be of any discombobulation. Doesn't everyone have their keyboard configured to make TeX easier to type?)

As to the debate between 𝑹 and ℝ, I find the latter much easier to distinguish from surrounding text. It is much easier for me to see that ℝ is something special, especially if I want to emphasise that it is the reals 𝑹 and not the integers 𝒁 (compare with: reals ℝ and not the integers ℤ.)

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Cam McLeman comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10941) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10941#Comment_10941 2010-11-21T20:00:54-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Cam McLeman http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/355/ +1 AgCl! Also, agree with #3 for David's reason. +1 AgCl!

Also, agree with #3 for David's reason.

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AgCl_ comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10937) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10937#Comment_10937 2010-11-21T18:08:59-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 AgCl_ http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/344/ You're welcome! Hope it helps until the macro issue is solved. Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10934) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10934#Comment_10934 2010-11-21T17:38:13-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ Thanks, AgCl! That's really useful to know, actually. Thanks, AgCl! That's really useful to know, actually.

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AgCl_ comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10933) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10933#Comment_10933 2010-11-21T17:37:16-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 AgCl_ http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/344/ This is off topic but I just wanted to let you know of something if you don't already: curly braces in \mathbb{Z} are not necessary. They are used to group multiple characters, and don't have any ... Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10932) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10932#Comment_10932 2010-11-21T17:36:14-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ Mark, Bourbaki used \bf{R} for the reals in 1930-something. That's standard enough for me! Mark, Bourbaki used \bf{R} for the reals in 1930-something. That's standard enough for me!

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Mark Meckes comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10930) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10930#Comment_10930 2010-11-21T17:28:35-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Mark Meckes http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/132/ Lenstra is certainly right about the historical origin of mathbb, but I don't think \mathbf{R} was ever really standard for the reals. I've seen a number of old texts and papers that denoted them by ... Lenstra is certainly right about the historical origin of mathbb, but I don't think \mathbf{R} was ever really standard for the reals. I've seen a number of old texts and papers that denoted them by (italic) R, E^1, or even X.

Incidentally, it seems we've already moved past any suggestion of defining meanings for all of \A,...,\Z, but in case it comes up it should be pointed out that some of those (\P and \L for at least) are already defined in LaTeX.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10928) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10928#Comment_10928 2010-11-21T16:35:48-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ On another matter, is it correct that those of us who never made the transition from Plain TeX to LaTeX can use \def where it has been suggested to use \newcommand? Nope, \def won't work. The ...

On another matter, is it correct that those of us who never made the transition from Plain TeX to LaTeX can use \def where it has been suggested to use \newcommand?

Nope, \def won't work. The preview is accurate, so you should be able to determine what will work before actually posting.

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Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10927) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10927#Comment_10927 2010-11-21T16:15:31-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ @José: I'm saying that I read that Bourbaki was opposed (for the reason Kevin Buzzard noted) to writing \bf{R} as \bb{R} in print. It wasn't at all a matter of technology. @José: I'm saying that I read that Bourbaki was opposed (for the reason Kevin Buzzard noted) to writing \bf{R} as \bb{R} in print. It wasn't at all a matter of technology.

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Gerry Myerson comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10922) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10922#Comment_10922 2010-11-21T15:17:47-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Gerry Myerson http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/370/ I think blackboard bold is for blackboards only, but I also think arguing bb vs bf is arguing religion. On another matter, is it correct that those of us who never made the transition from Plain TeX ... Kevin Walker comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10920) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10920#Comment_10920 2010-11-21T14:49:11-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Walker http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/36/ I also like Scott's option #3, for the reasons David gives.And I agree with José about \mathbb{R} vs \mathbf{R}. There aren't enough symbols to go around, so using \mathbb{R} for the reals frees up ...
And I agree with José about \mathbb{R} vs \mathbf{R}. There aren't enough symbols to go around, so using \mathbb{R} for the reals frees up \mathbf{R} for other purposes. On the rare occasions I come across \mathbf{R} for the reals, it strikes me as old-fashioned and a little jarring.]]>
David Speyer comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10919) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10919#Comment_10919 2010-11-21T14:36:54-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 David Speyer http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/23/ Unless it will slow down page loading times, I vote for 3 on the grounds of principle of least surprise. Think how annoying it will be if you've successfully typed \bbZ, \bbQ, \bbC and \bbN, only to ... Unless it will slow down page loading times, I vote for 3 on the grounds of principle of least surprise. Think how annoying it will be if you've successfully typed \bbZ, \bbQ, \bbC and \bbN, only to discover that our admins thought \bbA wouldn't be needed.

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José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10918) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10918#Comment_10918 2010-11-21T14:31:52-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ @Kevin, Harry: I don't believe that there is anything 'canonical' about \mathbf{R} for the real numbers. This choice might simply be a reflection of the available technology: perhaps it was easier ... @Kevin, Harry: I don't believe that there is anything 'canonical' about \mathbf{R} for the real numbers. This choice might simply be a reflection of the available technology: perhaps it was easier to use \mathbf{R} than \mathbb{R} in the days before computer typography simply because bold face fonts existed, whereas blackboard bold fonts did not. (Recall that fonts then were pieces of metal, not computer files!)

I see no reason to remain faithful to compromises made because of inadequate technology. It's enough that I have to type on a QWERTY keyboard :)

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Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10917) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10917#Comment_10917 2010-11-21T14:25:15-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ @Kevin: Didn't Weil or Dieudonné say something similar (and that's why Bourbaki uses boldface instead)? @Kevin: Didn't Weil or Dieudonné say something similar (and that's why Bourbaki uses boldface instead)?

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José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10914) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10914#Comment_10914 2010-11-21T13:12:06-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ @Kevin: I heard the story before -- but I just happen to like blackboard bold! @Kevin: I heard the story before -- but I just happen to like blackboard bold!

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Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10912) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10912#Comment_10912 2010-11-21T13:04:53-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ PPS <on high horse> Hendrik Lenstra once told me that he didn't like seeing mathbb in maths texts. He said that the "correct" abbreviation for the reals was mathbf{R}, ... Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10911) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10911#Comment_10911 2010-11-21T13:00:52-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ PS on Scott's suggestions, I think that (3) is the one most likely to conform of the "principle of least surprise", becuase it's unlikely that anyone will type \bbZ by accident, or ... Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10910) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10910#Comment_10910 2010-11-21T12:57:27-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ @Scott: from what you say it sounds like it might be possible at my end to actually edit my own mathjax library---aah, I see, but that doesn't work, because then what I write displays beautifully at ...
But to be honest, knowing that newcommand works is already a great help, because at least I can use that on long answers where I was in the past typing mathbf lots and lots of times.

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WillieWong comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10902) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10902#Comment_10902 2010-11-21T10:28:34-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 WillieWong http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/288/ I vote for a mixture of 1) and 2), but against 3). I vote for a mixture of 1) and 2), but against 3).

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Scott Morrison comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10901) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10901#Comment_10901 2010-11-21T09:17:57-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Scott Morrison http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/3/ Okay, sorry, to clarify the points above: As Anton points out, you can just use \newcommand{} as you please, at a per post level. Beyond that, we can install macros in a magic configuration file ... Okay, sorry, to clarify the points above:

As Anton points out, you can just use \newcommand{} as you please, at a per post level. Beyond that, we can install macros in a magic configuration file (that is, when the HTML that we serve tells your browser to load the MathJax library, we can pass it some configuration information, including new macros).

Now, there are I think three main proposals for what those macros should be:

  1. Only a handful of macros, for the most common bold face letters, e.g. \Z for \mathbb{Z}.
  2. Abbreviations for the commands \mathbb, etc. so you could type \bb Z instead of \mathbb{Z}. We'd also do this for \mathbf, \mathcal, and a few others.
  3. Abbreviations for the whole alphabet in various variations, so you could type \bbZ instead of \mathbb{Z}.

Some comments:

  1. is super easy to implement, but might contradict "the principle of least surprise", as people won't know which letters are provided.
  2. is also easy to implement. There's slight danger here, as some of the obvious contractions, e.g. \bf, might not play well with TeX (as opposed to LaTeX). (I don't actually know whether this is really a problem or not.)
  3. is slightly more complicated to implement; we need to either list lots of new macros, or include a macro that lets you apply a function to everything in a list, e.g. here, and then use that.

One advantage of 2) over 3) is that you can see type \bb{AB}, whereas for 3) you'd have to type \bbA\bbB.

Nevertheless, 3) is my preferred option, mostly because it's what I'm used to at home! :-)

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Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10900) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10900#Comment_10900 2010-11-21T05:20:28-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ @Kevin: Regarding number four on your list, that's about right. I was suggesting shorthand names for the fonts (which are essentially the same as before, just without the math- prefix). I think I ... @Kevin: Regarding number four on your list, that's about right.

I was suggesting shorthand names for the fonts (which are essentially the same as before, just without the math- prefix). I think I got most of the important ones, but if I remember correctly, for some reason, we don't have rsfs installed (I think Andrew Stacey complained when we discussed it because it might increase loading times or something). Could we also have rsfs, Anton?

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Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10899) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10899#Comment_10899 2010-11-21T01:00:09-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ PS once I can use macros in comments, there is a chance that I'll be able to write comments that are over 600 chars :-) This of course gives me a great opportunity to try and create buffer overflows ... Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10898) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10898#Comment_10898 2010-11-21T00:52:40-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ Thanks for all the responses! Here are some comments.(1) This was certainly not meant to become some debate about whether \Z should mean bbZ or bfZ! Of course that is an issue if things are resolved ...
(1) This was certainly not meant to become some debate about whether \Z should mean bbZ or bfZ! Of course that is an issue if things are resolved server-side, but it's not a big one: I would still be much happier typing \ZZ or \bfZ than \mathbf{Z}.

(2) Jose/Scott: I wish I understood your answer. I can see that MathJax will "let me do what I want", but I know nothing about mathjax so do not understand whether the page you point to is saying "type this at the start of every comment" or "put these lines into a magic configuration file" or what. If you could clarify this for me I would be very happy! If I'm supposed to cut and paste an incantation before every comment (which I think is what Anton is suggesting) then that's all well and good, but it might eat in to my precious 600 characters in an unpleasant way---I already find myself missingoutspacesandabbrvtngwrds when trying to squeeze my thoughts into those 600 chars sometimes.

(3) Gerald: I am precisely asking the details of a sensible way of how to do this :-) [rather than muddling along trying to solve the problem myself]

(4) Harry gives a suggestion which I don't understand, and Scott says he's happy enough with it. Can someone clarify what the suggestion is? Aah---is Harry suggesting more potential server-side macros, rather than telling me another way of doing mathbf? And Scott is suggesting that these macros seem uncontroversially-named?]]>
Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10897) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10897#Comment_10897 2010-11-20T23:22:17-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ Is that new with MathJax? If I remember correctly, that wasn't possible in jsMath. Is that new with MathJax? If I remember correctly, that wasn't possible in jsMath.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10896) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10896#Comment_10896 2010-11-20T22:43:17-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ I never liked whole alphabets of abbreviations, but I do think it makes sense to define at least a handful of standard macros. In addition to that, I'll let you in on a secret: you can define your ... I never liked whole alphabets of abbreviations, but I do think it makes sense to define at least a handful of standard macros.

In addition to that, I'll let you in on a secret: you can define your own macros within a post. For example, if you're typing a lot of \mathbb{Z}'s in a given question/answer, you can do it like this:

$\newcommand{\Z}{\mathbb{Z}}$ Now I can type things like $\Z$ and $\Z/p\Z$ easily!

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José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10895) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10895#Comment_10895 2010-11-20T20:04:59-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ Actually, since I use Chrome with the "Edit with Emacs" extension most of the time, I could do this client-side as well, as suggested by Gerald Edgar above. So, whereas selfishly I would ... Actually, since I use Chrome with the "Edit with Emacs" extension most of the time, I could do this client-side as well, as suggested by Gerald Edgar above. So, whereas selfishly I would like to push my own macros, in reality I'm happy for any (short) macros to be implemented.

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Tom Church comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10894) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10894#Comment_10894 2010-11-20T19:45:28-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Tom Church http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/412/ It seems that everyone agrees that \Z should mean what it always means -- the problem is there's no consensus on whether it should mean \mathbf{Z} or \mathbb{Z}. (Personally, I'd prefer \mathbb{Z}.) ... José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10893) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10893#Comment_10893 2010-11-20T18:16:32-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ How about \Z for \mathbf{Z} and \ZZ for \mathbb{Z}, etc... ? How about \Z for \mathbf{Z} and \ZZ for \mathbb{Z}, etc... ?

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Zev Chonoles comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10892) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10892#Comment_10892 2010-11-20T18:09:19-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Zev Chonoles http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/123/ If we decide to define macros for letters one at a time, maybe we should have a poll on which one we choose? In this particular case, another question would be what to output: \mathbf{Z} or ... If we decide to define macros for letters one at a time, maybe we should have a poll on which one we choose?

In this particular case, another question would be what to output: \mathbf{Z} or \mathbb{Z} (I use \Z for \mathbb{Z}). Maybe only shortening the commands, as per Harry's suggestion, would be fairer - neither \mathbf nor \mathbb would be given preference by having the macro use it.

Also: \opn for \operatorname ?

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Scott Morrison comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10891) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10891#Comment_10891 2010-11-20T17:48:19-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Scott Morrison http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/3/ The instructions for doing so are here. It seems we can write simple macros easily enough. I'm happy enough with Harry's suggestion. Another possiblity is to define whole alphabets of abbreviations, ... The instructions for doing so are here. It seems we can write simple macros easily enough.

I'm happy enough with Harry's suggestion. Another possiblity is to define whole alphabets of abbreviations, e.g. \bbA for a blackboard bold A, \cB for a caligraphic B, etc.

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geraldedgar comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10890) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10890#Comment_10890 2010-11-20T17:41:47-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 geraldedgar http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/116/ If you are typing on a computer, why not arrange for him to do these expansions for you? Who is the master, you or him? José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10889) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10889#Comment_10889 2010-11-20T17:40:57-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ Here's the relevant MathJax documentation page: http://www.mathjax.org/resources/docs/?options/TeX.html#configure-tex Here's the relevant MathJax documentation page: http://www.mathjax.org/resources/docs/?options/TeX.html#configure-tex

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Pete L. Clark comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10888) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10888#Comment_10888 2010-11-20T17:22:12-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Pete L. Clark http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/64/ And one more +1. It's funny that it took more than a year to get to this point! And one more +1. It's funny that it took more than a year to get to this point!

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WillieWong comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10887) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10887#Comment_10887 2010-11-20T17:07:44-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 WillieWong http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/288/ I think this maybe a good idea, but if our benevolent overlords decide to do this, can they also please document the short-hands in the FAQ? Like Jose said, everyone has his favourite abbreviations. ... I think this maybe a good idea, but if our benevolent overlords decide to do this, can they also please document the short-hands in the FAQ? Like Jose said, everyone has his favourite abbreviations. I use \Intgr \Nat \Real for what Kevin would probably call \Z, \N, and \R.

Also +1 Harry's suggestion, as long as those don't collide with something already defined. (\bf of course is problematic in plain LaTeX, but maybe okay within the limited confines of MathJax?)

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Harry Gindi comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10886) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10886#Comment_10886 2010-11-20T16:38:03-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ \bf, \cal, \bb, \frak, \scr? Also, could we have an alias for \operatorname? Every time I type it, my soul is crushed a little more. \bf, \cal, \bb, \frak, \scr?

Also, could we have an alias for \operatorname? Every time I type it, my soul is crushed a little more.

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CSiegel comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10885) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10885#Comment_10885 2010-11-20T16:30:22-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 CSiegel http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/12/ Here's another +1, and also, I use the same macros as José, but could deal with anything, so long as it's standardized for the site. José Figueroa comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10883) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10883#Comment_10883 2010-11-20T15:07:18-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 José Figueroa http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/68/ +1 as well. This is certainly possible with MathJax... I have been meaning to ask for this feature, but I was undecided since everyone has their favourite macros -- I certainly have mine -- and ... +1 as well. This is certainly possible with MathJax... I have been meaning to ask for this feature, but I was undecided since everyone has their favourite macros -- I certainly have mine -- and chances are they are all different. So it's not clear what is bestter: keep typing \mathbb{Z} or having to get used to some other non-canonical abbreviation. (Mine, for the record, is \ZZ.)

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Andy Putman comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10882) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10882#Comment_10882 2010-11-20T14:52:58-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Andy Putman http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/113/ +1 Kevin. I've been thinking the same thing, but was too lazy to complain :) Kevin Buzzard comments on "sick of typing mathbf/mathbb" (10881) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/785/sick-of-typing-mathbfmathbb/?Focus=10881#Comment_10881 2010-11-20T14:13:26-08:00 2018-11-04T13:46:06-08:00 Kevin Buzzard http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/65/ Because of my interests, most of my answers/comments at MO seem to talk about things like \mathbf{Z}_p or \mathbf{Z}/p\mathbf{Z}. Is there any way of making it so I can just type \Z_p or \Z/p\Z like ...