tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Not mathematics?) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:15:37 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher David Speyer comments on "Not mathematics?" (10599) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10599#Comment_10599 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10599#Comment_10599 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:01:15 -0800 David Speyer EDIT: I was confused when I wrote the earlier version of this post. I thought this was the thread discussing fractional iteration, not the thread discussing the "theory of value". I don't have anything useful to say in this thread, but the forum software will allow me to edit my post but not to delete it.

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Andy Putman comments on "Not mathematics?" (10590) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10590#Comment_10590 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10590#Comment_10590 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:58:31 -0800 Andy Putman Alexander Woo comments on "Not mathematics?" (10589) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10589#Comment_10589 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10589#Comment_10589 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:36:02 -0800 Alexander Woo
But it seems like we have a larger issue here that we have to think about.

There are a lot of people out there doing mathematical modelling who call themselves "applied mathematicians". They don't prove any theorems. They take complicated situations coming from, for example, ecology, figure out a sensible system of differential equations for them, point out some classical theorems which say that solutions to this set of equations exist and behave reasonably well numerically, run a simulation on their computer, vary a few parameters to see what happens (and maybe cite a theorem that says that behaviour of the system varies nicely as parameters vary), and publish a paper with the results.

The only difference between these people and those who would call themselves mathematical ecologists is that they tend do their work over several scientific areas rather than concentrating on a single one.

There are a fair number of math departments which are in fact dominated by such folks. (At least one pure mathematician has complained to me about the politics of working in such a department, including the unrealistic publication requirements being imposed on tenure-track pure mathematicians in the department. (For obvious reasons, this mathematician and the department will remain anonymous.))

Should these folks and their questions be welcome on this site? Or should we restrict this site to pure mathematics and the part of applied mathematics that proves theorems? ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10572) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10572#Comment_10572 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10572#Comment_10572 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:45:51 -0800 Anixx
By the way, I find this comment offensive and humiliating towards my topic of interest. ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10557) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10557#Comment_10557 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10557#Comment_10557 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:53:20 -0800 Anixx
Please tell me why this purely mathematical question asked in good faith should be 'penalized'? ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10554) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10554#Comment_10554 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10554#Comment_10554 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:46:44 -0800 Anixx
This is untrue. As I said a measuse based on probability distributions cannot be "not mathematics". It can be seen as norm. Is norm also not mathematics?

> t's like somebody making up a precise quantification of "health"

If that definition is precisely defined and useful, then what you have against that definition? For example one can construct health measure of an abstract object represented as graph or define health through the probability of death of individual over a time period, do you consider it "non-mathematical"? ]]>
Anton Geraschenko comments on "Not mathematics?" (10521) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10521#Comment_10521 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10521#Comment_10521 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:57:08 -0800 Anton Geraschenko Let me clarify some technical points. The process of closing a question orthogonal to the process of deleting it as spam/offensive. A question can be closed by five votes from 3k+ rep users or by a moderator. Independent of votes to close, a post can be automatically deleted as spam/offensive/grossly inappropriate if enough people flag it as such. If that happens, the post is deleted and the owner is penalized 100 reputation. Only 10k+ rep users and moderators can see the number of spam flags, and only 10k+ rep users and moderators can see deleted questions. Users can always see their own deleted answers. Your question was deleted, but not closed. (You're also confusing the roles of "administrator" and "moderator", but that's really not relevant here.)

A generalized meaning of "spam" is an unwanted internet message

If your post is deleted as spam/offensive, it means that members of the community think the post is a detriment to the site and that posting it on the site was sufficiently misguided that it should be penalized. This is the accepted definition of "spam" on MO. Your question was not about probability or about mathematics. I don't even think it was an economic question. It's a philosophical question, but it's unlikely to be a fruitful one. It's like somebody making up a precise quantification of "health" or some other intentionally vague concept. I can't help myself from illustratating the sorts of pointless discussion these things lead to: your definition of value has absolutely no bearing on my probability of survival, so the value it would assign to itself is zero.

If you don't agree with the MO community about what counts as mathematics, it will only frustrate everybody when you try to do mathematics with it. With that, I'll take Andy's advice and bow out.

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Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10520) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10520#Comment_10520 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10520#Comment_10520 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:04:32 -0800 Anixx
Evidently the reason 'spam' was choosen instead of 'offtopic' or anything other just to strip me of as much reputation as possible and make the question inaccessible. ]]>
Todd Trimble comments on "Not mathematics?" (10519) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10519#Comment_10519 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10519#Comment_10519 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:58:51 -0800 Todd Trimble
I'm bowing out now... ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10518) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10518#Comment_10518 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10518#Comment_10518 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:41:19 -0800 Anixx
The topic as I intended it is pure (but applied) mathematics. It is not like finding new sorts of limits or summation of series, but discussion of a measure, which can be seen like a norm, or mutual information, or correlation, or a value of a game in game theory. There are many similar measures in mathematics which hardly can be considered off-topic here. ]]>
Todd Trimble comments on "Not mathematics?" (10516) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10516#Comment_10516 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10516#Comment_10516 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:31:01 -0800 Todd Trimble Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10515) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10515#Comment_10515 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10515#Comment_10515 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:24:40 -0800 Anixx
I have seen in other discussions here that an elaborate background description was very welcome and sometimes required that's why I posted the question in such form. Of course I could strip it to a near pure-mathematical form.

But I agree that anyway this question has certain empirical component, but I think it is not more than in theory of information, Euclidian geometry or probability theory in general. It is not like discussing an economics law of dependence between inflation and unemployment. ]]>
Todd Trimble comments on "Not mathematics?" (10514) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10514#Comment_10514 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10514#Comment_10514 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:17:42 -0800 Todd Trimble
A generalized meaning of "spam" is an unwanted internet message; here the reason "spam" for closing would apply to questions where the question is buried under a disquisition that is not precise mathematics, making it unwanted or undesirable as far as MO is concerned. As far as I can tell there is a heavy empirical component to the question and therefore the question is not suitable for MO; ideally, we want crisp definitive mathematical questions which call for crisp definitive mathematical answers. ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10513) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10513#Comment_10513 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10513#Comment_10513 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:02:28 -0800 Anixx
I have two assumptions

1. Probably there was too many background explanation so the mathematical part looked too small.

2. Some mathematical theorists unconsciously think about probability theory and theory of information (and probably other fields of applied mathematics) as of non-mathematical disciplines which border physics, where no new mathematical research can be conducted. ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10511) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10511#Comment_10511 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10511#Comment_10511 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 10:29:09 -0800 Anixx
This is a clear incitement for a conspiracy against me which is not of course a good-faith intent.

Regarding my intents, what can be a better faith than rigorously formulate and prepare a question which interests me and post it here only to find it deleted as "spam"?

P.S. Of course I do not want "good fight", I just asked the question to get it answered, and now I want explanation of what rules did I broke so not to break them in future. It seems the definition of "spam" is rather arbitrary, so I cannot be sure that my next question will not also be deleted as "spam". ]]>
Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10508) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10508#Comment_10508 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10508#Comment_10508 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 10:15:39 -0800 Anixx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)

As I understand, spam is posting the same message several times, and I fail to see how a first-time posted mathematical question becomes "spam". In this case we see a clear case of using the tools in non-intended way.

> The question had no mathematical content.

Proposed measure of a probability-theoretic value is "no mathematical content"?

How the conscience allows people to state such intentional indiscriminate lie? ]]>
Andy Putman comments on "Not mathematics?" (10507) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10507#Comment_10507 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10507#Comment_10507 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 10:02:33 -0800 Andy Putman
However, I would suggest not getting into protracted arguments with Anixx about this. Given past discussions on meta with him, I suspect that he is looking for a good fight. Let's not give him one. If we don't participate, the thread will die.

I think that as a community, we have a responsibility to respond to policy queries on meta, but only if those queries are made in good faith. ]]>
José Figueroa comments on "Not mathematics?" (10506) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10506#Comment_10506 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10506#Comment_10506 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 10:01:01 -0800 José Figueroa This meta thread seems to explain the loss of 100 rep points: http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/629/deletion/

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Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10505) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10505#Comment_10505 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10505#Comment_10505 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:57:19 -0800 Anixx
This is even more fascinating! Am I effectively banned from MO now? What diseased consciousness one should have to count this question as "spam"?

> but you did not have a mathematical question about it, but rather a bunch of rambling pseudo-economics.

No. I asked a question about a proposed measure in probability theory. This is related to mathematical economics and game theory of course. ]]>
José Figueroa comments on "Not mathematics?" (10504) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10504#Comment_10504 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10504#Comment_10504 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:57:01 -0800 José Figueroa For the record, I agree with Ben: the question was not about probability theory; although it did use that language.

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Ben Webster comments on "Not mathematics?" (10503) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10503#Comment_10503 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10503#Comment_10503 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:52:56 -0800 Ben Webster Here's the text of the question, so that people know what we're talking about:

You all know that in today's world when it comes to measure value, most people would use dollar as a unit measure. There are other units though all of which can be more or less exactly converted to each other. But it seems that there is apparently no internationally-agreed theoretically-defined unit of value.

So my question is whether such abstract unit of value was indeed defined in any theoretical paper, about which I do not know?

Below are some my considerations about the topic.

First, it should be noted that economists developed concepts of personal value, marginal value, exchange value etc. These all mostly depend on which subject is considered and in what circumstances, sometimes can be derived following certain procedures from each other and can be measured in the same units, so such plurality should not mislead us.

  1. It is indeed possible to postulate a unit of value as a value of say, 1 kg of gold. This definition is rather old and useful, but becomes problematic when there is no gold available.

  2. Marxists seem to postulate the value as a measure of labour needed to obtain the commodity in question. The problem here is how to measure the amount of labour. In human-hours? Very inexact and completely non-abstract. Besides has little correlation with market prices.

  3. Initially I thought that it may be possible to postulate a unit of value as a value o commodities which increase pleasure or reduce suffering twofold. This definition seems rather universal, but has the same problem: how to measure suffering and pleasure?

  4. So I came to the following possible definition: unit value is the value of commodities which increase probability of a positive outcome e-fold for the following unit of time. Since a common negative outcome for all people and animals is death, it is possible to define a unit value as the value of commodities, which increases the chance of survival e-fold for the following unit of time, without creating any additional pleasure or suffering. We can then take a limit with the unit of time going to zero and integrate. Let $p_0(t)$ is the distribution of probability of survival without the commodity and $p_1(t)$ is the distribution of probability of survival with the commodity. Let $(t_0,t_1)$ is the interval of time through which the commodity affects the probability of survival (with t=0 being the present moment). Then value of the commodity V would be

$$V=\int_{t_0}^{t_1} ({t_1-t+t_0})\log \frac{p_1(t)}{p_0(t)} dt$$

If we take another logarithm base we can simply get another unit of value, proportional to the previous one. Following this definition it is possible to derive other concepts such as marginal value, exchange value (as a market equilibrium of personal values) etc.

This definition, though does not take into account possible sufferings and pleasure some commodities can provide, for example, the value of a box of cigarettes would be negative. But if we assign certain value to pleasure we can overcome this difficulty. Such value may be assigned based on empiric data regarding exchange rate of say, cigarettes and a commodity that increases survival without providing any pleasure.

So, I would like to hear any suggestions to improve this definition and possibly pointing to an existing abstract definition of this kind.

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Ben Webster comments on "Not mathematics?" (10502) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10502#Comment_10502 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10502#Comment_10502 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:51:04 -0800 Ben Webster Anixx- It was marked as spam. You're right that that probability measure is a mathematical object, but you did not have a mathematical question about it, but rather a bunch of rambling pseudo-economics.

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Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10501) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10501#Comment_10501 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10501#Comment_10501 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:50:15 -0800 Anixx José Figueroa comments on "Not mathematics?" (10500) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10500#Comment_10500 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10500#Comment_10500 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:48:03 -0800 José Figueroa I'm sorry I cannot explain the 100 reputation loss. I'm not a moderator and experience has shown that the faq is definitely not exhaustive.

As for your (perhaps rhetorical) question concerning whether a mathematical expression is or is not mathematics, I think it's important to distinguish 'language' and 'subject'. As I stated already, there are many questions I could write down in mathematical language, but which would not be necessarily mathematical questions. And I would certainly not ask them in MO, however interesting I personally think they are. You should not feel offended because your question was closed. It does not mean that the question is not interesting, just that the MO community (or those who voted down or voted to close the question, at least) concluded that the question was not appropriate to the site.

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Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10498) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10498#Comment_10498 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10498#Comment_10498 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:33:48 -0800 Anixx
$$V=\int_{t_0}^{t_1} (t_0+t_1-t) \log \frac{p_1(t)}{p_0(t)}dt$$

can be "not mathematics"? Again, is probability theory mathematics? If yes, then this is also mathematics and it is research-level because discusses a little-known part of probability theory.

And please tell me why I was stripped of 100 reputation for this question? ]]>
José Figueroa comments on "Not mathematics?" (10497) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10497#Comment_10497 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10497#Comment_10497 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:28:03 -0800 José Figueroa The question is still there (but perhaps only visible to moderators and 10K+ rep users). I didn't vote to close, by the way; although I agree to a large extent with sleepless's comment that this is not a research-level question in mathematics. There are many research-level questions I can think of (for instance in my own field of Physics) which can be phrased mathematically, yet are not mathematics question.

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Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10496) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10496#Comment_10496 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10496#Comment_10496 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:14:58 -0800 Anixx Anixx comments on "Not mathematics?" (10495) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10495#Comment_10495 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/762/not-mathematics/?Focus=10495#Comment_10495 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:24:57 -0800 Anixx claiming that the subject of the question does not belong to mathematics.

The topic of the question asks for existing definitions of a value in abstract sense. It also proposes a possible definition as an operator of two probability distributions. The definition of course can be used outside of economics, for example, in game theory where the players exchange certain resources.

People, if you think that such operator on probabilities does not belong to mathematics, then what belongs? Does correlation belong to mathematics? Does angle belong to mathematics? Does probability belong to mathematics? Does information belong to mathematics? Does norm belong to mathematics? ]]>