tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (When to close, when to delete) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:23:51 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Scott Carnahan comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10085) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10085#Comment_10085 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10085#Comment_10085 Tue, 02 Nov 2010 01:16:12 -0700 Scott Carnahan Update: Ashok has replied with a reason for deleting. The moderators are discussing it. (Sorry for the low information density)

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Will Jagy comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10084) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10084#Comment_10084 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10084#Comment_10084 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:57:23 -0700 Will Jagy
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/44452/weak-convergence ]]>
WillieWong comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10083) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10083#Comment_10083 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10083#Comment_10083 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:50:53 -0700 WillieWong Huh, now I am confused. I was repeating hearsay told to me by someone else in a different thread that a question cannot be deleted after answers have been posted. But now that I go back a look at my old questions, all of them (including the ones I have accepted answers for) display a link for [delete] at the bottom of the questions. So how exactly does this software work? (No, I don't think I want to find out by trying to delete one of my old questions.)

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Scott Carnahan comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10082) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10082#Comment_10082 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10082#Comment_10082 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:36:21 -0700 Scott Carnahan Your answer received one upvote before Ashok deleted the question, so my new conjecture about this software is that the person asking the question can delete as long as an answer isn't accepted. It's not clear to me why Ashok deleted the question, but I feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of using my power to undelete without more discussion. I'll send Ashok an email.

I don't know if you can see your answer at this link, but it should be viewable to users with at least 10000 points. Here is the text of the question and answer, separated by a line segment:

This is just an extension of my previous question http://mathoverflow.net/questions/41259/tightness-of-probabilty-distributions

Let $\mathcal{P}(\mathbb{N})$ be the set of all PMF's on $\mathbb{N}={1,2,\dots }$. Let $E$ be a convex subset of $\mathcal{P}(\mathbb{N})$ and $Q\notin E$. Let $\alpha>1$ and $\beta=\frac{1}{\alpha}$. Let us suppose that $s:=\displaystyle \sup_{P' \in E'}\sum P'(x)^{\beta}Q'(x)^{1-\beta} >0$, where $P'(x)=\frac{P(x)^{\alpha}}{\sum P(x)^{\alpha}}$,and $E'=\{P':P\in E\}$. My problem is to find a convex $E$ such that $E'$ is closed (with respect to the total variation metric) but $s$ is not attained in $E'$.

By making use of the example given by Bill Bradley in the above mentioned thread, I have the following very close counterexample.

Let $Q=(1,0,0,0,...)$ and let $R_n$, for $n=2,3,...,$ as $R_n(1)=\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{n}, R_n(n)=\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n}$ and $R_n(x)=0$ for all other values and let $E=$ Convex hull of ${R_n}$.

As you can see $s=1$ and is not attained in $E'$ (actually attained at $(1, 0, 0,\dots)$ which is not in $E'$.) This is what I would be happy with. But the problem here is that $E'$ is not closed also, because if we take $P_n=\frac{1}{n} \sum_{i=2}^{n+1}R_i$, then $P_n'\to (1, 0, 0, \dots)\notin E'$. But I want $E'$ to be closed.

Can one somehow change the things here a bit and get a counterexample ( i.e., $E$ convex, $E'$ closed but $s$ is not attained)? Or may the result be true?


I think that in your assumption, the supremum is actually attained.

Consider the set $$\hat E:=\{tp \ :\ t\geq0 \ , \quad p\in E\ \} \cap\bar B(0,1;\ell^\alpha).$$ Since $E$ is convex, $\hat E$ is convex too (here $\bar B(0,1;\ell^\alpha)$ denotes the closed unit ball of the sequence space $\ell^\alpha$).

Moreover, we are going to show that the assumption that $E^'$ is closed in $\ell^1,$ implies that $\hat E$ is a closed bounded subset of the reflexive space $\ell^\alpha$, thus weakly compact. Indeed, let $u$ belong to the $\ell^\alpha$ norm closure of $\hat E.$ So, there exists a sequence $t_j\geq0,$ and a sequence $p_j\in E,$ such that $u _j:=t _j\ p_j$ converges to $u$ in $\ell^\alpha.$ If $u=0$ then $u\in \hat E$ and there's nothing to prove; otherwise we have (for large $j$) that $p _j / | p _j | _\alpha = u _j / | u _j | _\alpha $ which converges in $\ell^\alpha$ to $u/|u| _\alpha.$ Hence $p^'_j:=\big(p _j/|p _j | _\alpha\big)^\alpha$ converges in $\ell^1$ to $\big(u/|u | _\alpha\big)^\alpha, $ showing that the latter belongs to $E^'$, which is $|\cdot| _1$-closed. This implies that for some $p\in E,$ $u$ has the form $\frac{|u| _\alpha}{|p| _\alpha} p,$ so is in $\hat E$.

Now consider $v:=\big(q/|q| _\alpha\big)^{\alpha-1}.$ It is a norm-one element of the dual space $\ell^{\alpha'},$ and your optimization problem can be rewritten as $$s:=\sup _{p\in E}\big(\frac{p}{|p| _\alpha}\cdot v \big) =\sup _{u\in\hat E} (u\cdot v),$$ that is attained by the weak compactness of $\hat E.$

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WillieWong comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10079) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10079#Comment_10079 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10079#Comment_10079 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 16:46:16 -0700 WillieWong @pietro majer: it is my impression that once a question received an answer, the original asker of the question can no longer delete the question. So if any deletion did happen, either you posted only as a comment, or the mods decided to delete the question for whatever reason.

Someone with access to moderator tools maybe able to address your question.

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pietro majer comments on "When to close, when to delete" (10066) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10066#Comment_10066 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=10066#Comment_10066 Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:38:13 -0700 pietro majer PS: so, if possible, I'd like that that post were restored, since it may be of iterest to other people too...

PPS: thanks everybody. It seems that Ashok deleted that material "for some reason". Actually I don't get it, but it's certainly his/her right do do it, according to the MO current policy, since deletion of questions is a possible option.
Actually, I'm a bit puzzled about this: is it a good thing that one can delete a question together with other people's contributions? After thinking, I tend to think that it should be more constructive to put as a condition the permission of the administrators and of the other people involved.
(compare with the Wikipedia editing policy: "You irrevocably agree to release your contributions... etc")
cheers, pm ]]>
davidk01 comments on "When to close, when to delete" (915) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=915#Comment_915 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=915#Comment_915 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:59:45 -0800 davidk01 Scott Morrison comments on "When to close, when to delete" (910) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=910#Comment_910 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=910#Comment_910 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:06:40 -0800 Scott Morrison @davidk01

I think I'm in agreement with the other moderators in saying that we're quite pleased to see that by moderating heavily in the early days, we've managed to ensure that the "aggregate attitude of its participants" agrees pretty well with our own ideas. :-) After all, MO was started for entirely selfish reasons -- Anton wanted a community of people eager to answer his questions!

Nevertheless, I acknowledge your request for moderate moderation.

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davidk01 comments on "When to close, when to delete" (906) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=906#Comment_906 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=906#Comment_906 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:37:22 -0800 davidk01 Anton Geraschenko comments on "When to close, when to delete" (859) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=859#Comment_859 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=859#Comment_859 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:48:19 -0800 Anton Geraschenko If a post is deleted, the reputation (positive or negative) disappears, but not instantly. If there's some problem (e.g. somebody has gained enough rep to be a nuisance), a moderator can manually trigger a rep recalculation. For example, I just triggered a rep recalculation for fpqc, which brought his rep up from 281 to 286.

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David Speyer comments on "When to close, when to delete" (842) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=842#Comment_842 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=842#Comment_842 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:14:25 -0800 David Speyer Regarding the "list of questions in moderation": Aren't the questions with negative votes a very good approximation?

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Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "When to close, when to delete" (841) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=841#Comment_841 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=841#Comment_841 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:39:08 -0800 Ilya Nikokoshev @Andrew, I think it's a great idea to have a public list of "currently in moderation" questions.

Splitting an account in two doesn't look like a good idea since it would confuse some users and encourage others to have several accounts as well, which goes against the net etiquette.

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (830) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=830#Comment_830 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=830#Comment_830 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:57:58 -0800 Harry Gindi Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (829) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=829#Comment_829 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=829#Comment_829 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:42:12 -0800 Ben Webster I think that meant fpqc wasn't sure if you would get back any rep you lost from it being voted down, or from voting the questions or answers down.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "When to close, when to delete" (827) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=827#Comment_827 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=827#Comment_827 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:24:35 -0800 Andrew Stacey Not sure that negative rep is technically possible. I've just posted a question on meta.SE about that.

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (826) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=826#Comment_826 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=826#Comment_826 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:02:35 -0800 Harry Gindi Andrew Stacey comments on "When to close, when to delete" (823) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=823#Comment_823 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=823#Comment_823 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:07:41 -0800 Andrew Stacey Couldn't find the answer to this one on meta.SE, maybe someone has better search skills than I do.

If a question is deleted, what happens to the rep? As an example, consider this question which I've just voted to close. Within the hour of it being asked, it got an answer which was accepted. The answerer now has 16 rep, enough to start voting. The asker has 3 rep, not so much. If this question just gets closed, I presume that these reps stay as they are. This might be a case for deletion.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "When to close, when to delete" (822) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=822#Comment_822 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=822#Comment_822 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:19:13 -0800 Andrew Stacey @Ben: I proposed a solution to this on another thread somewhere around here, though I don't know how well it would work: split your account into two. Have a "normal user" account (with all the accumulated rep that you have) and a "moderator" account. Use the "normal user" account for almost everything and only use the "moderator" account when you really need to. I don't know if this is possible, but if it is then it would solve that problem.

More generally, since there's no-one yet with 10000 rep, the only people with access to the lists are the moderators. As someone with 3000 rep, I have most of the powers of a moderator but don't have the ability to selectively use those abilities because I don't have access to the lists. So I can't quickly scan through a list of questions that others have thought worthy of being closed and decide whether or not to add my voice to the list. I have to do it the hard way by going through every question. I'm not going to do that as it just takes too long. So maybe while there aren't any (or many) people with at least 10000 rep, perhaps we should have a thread here so that when someone votes to close a question then they mention it here and others with 3000 rep can go and see if they agree. Also, it can be used by those who don't have enough rep to vote to close but who would like to bring something to the attention of those who do (rather than just the moderators).

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Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "When to close, when to delete" (809) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=809#Comment_809 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=809#Comment_809 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:34:41 -0800 Ilya Nikokoshev

can I do this somehow?

Well, there's always a back-up option of starting a thread on meta!

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (798) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=798#Comment_798 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=798#Comment_798 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:30:32 -0800 Harry Gindi Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (796) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=796#Comment_796 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=796#Comment_796 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:10:21 -0800 Ben Webster @David- Yes, there are times when I wish I could vote to delete a question rather than just deleting it (question: can I do this somehow?), just so that I could express my opinion, but also require some consensus.

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Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (795) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=795#Comment_795 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=795#Comment_795 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:09:10 -0800 Ben Webster @Ilya- As far as I know, we have never deleted a good faith answer to a question (the only deleted answer I remember was a joke about Turing's sexual orientation). The ones you pointed out just never had any answers. I'm sure you've all seen what kind of questions get closed. The ones that have been deleted were ones that were on the level of "Was Serge Lang gay?"

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David Speyer comments on "When to close, when to delete" (794) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=794#Comment_794 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=794#Comment_794 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:36:46 -0800 David Speyer I'd be OK with fpqc's policy if people weren't so trigger-happy about marking things as homework. Here are a collection of questions which were suspected of being homework, but strike me a reasonable questions for someone to invent for themselves.

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/3471/are-the-asymptotics-of-fourier-coefficients-to-periodic-solutions-of-ode-known

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/1828/is-an-nth-root-of-unity-a-square

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/6718/how-many-vertices-do-i-need-before-i-get-n-independent-edges

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/6895/unbounded-countable-subset

This weekend brought a flood of dripping, blatant homework questions. If we could agree on a standard for things that are atrociously homework, I'd be fine with deleting them and all their answers.

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Harry Gindi comments on "When to close, when to delete" (785) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=785#Comment_785 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=785#Comment_785 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:29:31 -0800 Harry Gindi Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "When to close, when to delete" (784) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=784#Comment_784 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=784#Comment_784 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:27:40 -0800 Ilya Nikokoshev Would it be possible to collect the examples? In the format of the form

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Ben Webster comments on "When to close, when to delete" (783) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=783#Comment_783 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/75/when-to-close-when-to-delete/?Focus=783#Comment_783 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:13:43 -0800 Ben Webster I think we need to have a serious discussion about what the appropriate action with inappropriate posts is. As I see it, there are roughly 3 options:

  1. Close the question, and do nothing else.
  2. Close the question, and delete the answers.
  3. Delete the question.

At the moment, our policy seems to be: 1 for all posts which seem to be good faith or HW, 3 for "trolling" (spam/abusive) posts, but we haven't carefully formulated one. I'm starting this read in hopes we will.

At this point, I have to wonder if we shouldn't start being more severe and deleting more questions.

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