tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Is MO advice over-optimistic)

deane.yang comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9348)

deane.yang — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 14:30:41 -0700

I actually did serve on a jury once for a murder trial. And the "beyond a reasonable doubt" definitely bugged the hell out of me. As far as I could tell, this was an impossible standard to meet. In practice there is always room for reasonable doubt. Despite this, we did manage to convict the guy.

Noah Snyder comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9344)

Noah Snyder — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:45:00 -0700

I was on a jury once, but it was for a civil case and hence there's a different standard ("more likely than not likely").

WillieWong comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9343)

WillieWong — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:28:05 -0700

That reminds me of the anecdotes that I've often heard about Mathematicians being among the first ones cut from the Jury interviews by prosecutors. I haven't had the chance to serve jury duty in the States, so I can't vouch for the veracity, but it is said that the mathematicians often get too hung up on the "prove" part of "prove beyond reasonable doubt".

voloch comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9341)

voloch — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 10:48:24 -0700

Another explanation is that, when you ask a mathematician whether X is possible, the answer will be yes even if X is highly unlikely but, in some circumstances, possible. You might get a different answer if you ask whether X is likely.

Noah Snyder comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9340)

Noah Snyder — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 10:29:48 -0700

For an example of a more "pessimistic" bit of advice that nonetheless got a reasonable number of upvotes look at my answer to http://mathoverflow.net/questions/19418/can-i-become-a-good-mathematician/19442#19442

Ben Webster comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9322)

Ben Webster — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:17:41 -0700

Just to reiterate my point: I think a big part of the problem is trying to get advice from people who don't know enough to pitch it at the correct level. Look, for example at this question which I resulted in the OP getting good and appropriate advice, because he actually provided details about his situation.

Richard Dore comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9312)

Richard Dore — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:42:34 -0700

There is also the bias that people who became successful career mathematicians are the people around to tell the stories. The people for whom mathematics didn't work out are far less likely to be around posting on MO. So it's no real surprise to see more of the optimistic outlook.

Will Jagy comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9311)

Will Jagy — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:16:59 -0700

Deane, did you ever get a chance to meet with Andrew Locascio? From what I can see, he makes overtures about emailing or calling people but does not then follow through.

deane.yang comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9310)

deane.yang — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:43:04 -0700

Gil, I guess I should have read your comment more carefully and also maybe responded to AndrewL's comment differently. He has a way of expressing himself in a way that I probably overreacted to. It is indeed a legitimate possibility that the person in question has an advisor who will not respond well to the student's question and the student knows this in advance. If that's the case, then the student might want to approach the situation differently. In that sense I completely agree with AndrewL and your concerns and concede that you two have a good point. Regards, Deane

Will Jagy comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9309)

Will Jagy — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:31:58 -0700

David, I had been trying to keep my message short. I agree that a parish and a congregation are closest to tenure or full professorship (and I've gone back and edited in a few words to that effect). It would appear that, in choosing the quickest and most extreme comparison, I have diluted my own message and perhaps given the impression that I endorse monomania.

I think I will look for an email address for you and write to you.

Cam McLeman comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9308)

Cam McLeman — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:28:03 -0700

"I don't know what we can really do about it, since none of us can really give useful advice for situations outside of our experience."

Well, we can close questions which ask for advice that is too far removed from activities which are exclusive to research mathematicians (as I'm sure we now do). The questions on reviewer etiquette, questions about journals, teaching graduate or advanced undergraduate mathematics, etc., would be appropriate under this setting. Questions on how to be a good student (graduate, undergraduate, non-traditional) less so.

Alexander Woo comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9304)

Alexander Woo — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:36:18 -0700

As a tangent to this, I also tend to think that a lot of the teaching advice given here is too optimistic.

The teaching advice seems to be aimed at those teaching students who are roughly at the level of, say, students at the University of Minnesota (both graduate and undergraduate). The average US student is nowhere near that level.

Perhaps that is roughly average for the participants (in the teaching questions) here, but as general advice, even for mathematicians active in research, that seems ridiculous. Especially in the current job market, Central Michigan (whose students are probably still above average) seems like a pretty good job.

I don't know what we can really do about it, since none of us can really give useful advice for situations outside of our experience.

gilkalai comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9303)

gilkalai — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:14:48 -0700

Dear Deane,

Let me quote my remark regarding this question:
"I found the answer of Coudy suggesting to talk to the advisor most useful. There were some answers that I found a bit "too optimistic". They may work sometimes but they can also fail. Andrew's answer while gloomy reflects some reasonable concerns. Even if the advisor will support the student "going to try it out" his (/her) role as an advisor may become much smaller, and he (/she) may loose interest. Answers to such questions on MO tend to be somewhat romantic on the expense of being realistic."

So I feel that talking to the supervisor is the best idea. But along with the various other answers some of which were over optimistic, Andrew's answer reflected a legitimate concern. (Which I would phrase in a completely different language.) In any case, I am interested in other questions and to what extent some of our collective advice is overoptimistic to the extent it can be damaging. (I agree that, in general, optimism is a good humain trait.)

(I did not follow all of Andrew's posts and comments. I am aware that there is a localized attempt to avoid engagements betweens Andrew and Harry. (Given that, I think Harry should refrain from passing judgement on Andrew as in his comment above.) On the other question Andrew contributed a (moving) answer in the optimistic direction which was well-recieved.)

David Speyer comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9300)

David Speyer — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:49:42 -0700

@Will Jagy: Surely the analogue of getting your own congregation is getting a professorship! Getting a Fields medal is like becoming a Cardinal, or whatever the comparable Protestant achievement is.

I wish people on MO would remember that Fields medalists are at the extraordinary end of mathematicians, and most of us are in no way seriously thinking of winning one. I am working to contribute useful tools and insights, which will be cited by other mathematicians and become part of their understanding. I am trying to teach undergraduates how to think mathematically and I hope, soon, to mentor grad students into becoming successful professional mathematicians. In short, I am trying to be a good professor at a research university.

I am in no way thinking about how to win a Fields medal or a Millenium prize. It bugs me when people act as if these are, or should be, the goals of all mathematicians. (I think I feel a blog post coming on.)

deane.yang comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9299)

deane.yang — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:47:38 -0700

Gil, I agree that the advice on MO is overall way too optimistic. This is largely because most of the participants are either avid amateurs or hopeful graduate students. But I confess to being a little puzzled by your view of the answer for "changing thesis topic". Do you really feel that it is a bad idea for the student to talk to his advisor about this? It seems to me that if you can't talk to your advisor about this, you might be working with the wrong advisor. (A strong student probably could get away with ignoring his advisor and just doing what he wants but most of us could not) I objected quite strongly to AndrewL's response, because it depicted high ranking math departments in a way that I did not recognize. Also, although his anecdote sounded accurate, I disliked how he used it to characterize high ranking department faculty in general. As I said there, such advisors definitely exist in both good and weaker departments. Students should just avoid them (unless they are strong enough to live with the negative attitude). Of course, what you're probably really saying is that it's better to have an advisor who is willing to be honest with you than one who hides his views. This is true and unfortunately the latter is more common. Regards, Deane

Ben Webster comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9296)

Ben Webster — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:51:12 -0700

Gil-

It's probably true that one gets slightly over-optimistic advice on MO; after all, the random people on the internet are going to fill in the details they don't know about you in an optimistic way. Since they don't have any reason to think you can't work on multiple projects, they don't want to be so uncharitable as to think you can't. I'm not really sure what you could really do to correct this, other than telling people not to seek advice that depends pretty strongly on their talents, interests and life situation from people who know none of those things.

As for Andrew's answer, it got voted down because it didn't make any sense (unsurprising, since it was written by someone without experience as a Ph.D. student or advisor). You shouldn't start from the assumption that your advisor is ruthlessly exploiting you to advance themselves in their field (we're not chemists), and I don't think many advisors would be very troubled by you saying you were thinking of trying something different and asking them for advice. But of course, it all depends on context, which we don't have.

Emerton comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9294)

Emerton — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:33:30 -0700

Dear Gil,

I agree that for such questions there is a trend towards optimism, but I'm not sure how (or whether it is wise) to counter it. In the context of advising an anonymous stranger online (whose mental state is unknown), I think most people are unwilling to give advice that is too negative. I think that one can presume that the person seeking the advice is all too aware of the pitfalls of their situation, and people are naturally reluctant to amplify the questioner's pessimism in too open a manner and so add to their distress. Thus the more negative aspects of people's advice are couched in somewhat nuanced terms (as various comments above note).

If one wanted to address the issue, one possibility would be to add a remark to the FAQ making the obvious point that it is difficult for strangers to provide detailed career or personal advice, and hence that consulting MO on such matters is going to lead to imperfect and incomplete advice at best.

Will Jagy comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9293)

Will Jagy — Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:51:05 -0700

I think this (closed) question shows my view, at least, I left the final comment. The student may or may not have been real, hard to say.
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/40076/roadmap-for-future-studies

As far as advice to those over 40 (I'll be 54 in two weeks), at the other extreme to Max Muller on what to study while still in high school: growing up, the priest at the church my family attended was also a Divinity Ph.D. and instructor at the Mercer School, mostly older students. The students were told clearly that the probability of them ever getting a congregation of their own was low. They should get ordained because they needed to do that for themselves. For MO, perhaps the relevant concept is that, while many people with a Ph.D. eventually get tenure, most don't get a Fields medal.

Ryan Budney comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9292)

Ryan Budney — Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:47:47 -0700

My comment on "advice on changing topic..." got quite a few of upvotes, and was quite ambiguous -- changing topics could be okay in the right situations, it could also mean you're not cut for doing research.

It's the way humans work, to some extent. You can win elections simply by appearing more optimistic, regardless of whether or not you have any redeeming capacity for the position.

Andy Putman comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9291)

Andy Putman — Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:46:01 -0700

For the thesis problem question, there were several somewhat cautionary responses (eg coudy and Douglas Stone's). In the end, I hope that the message the OP got from that is that he or she should take talk to his/her advisor. Giving that kind of advice is an important part of an advisor's job.

I think we should not resurrect the discussion of Andrew L and his outlook on the mathematical community. If it were up to me, his posts and comments along those lines would have been deleted long ago, but since they're not the only thing to do is to ignore them.

As far as the age question, I agree that maybe some cautionary words might have been warranted, but the fact is that the OP was only 30. That's not that old! If the OP were eg 50, then one would give different advice.

Harry Gindi comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9290)

Harry Gindi — Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:32:49 -0700

The reason that the negative post got so many votes down is that it was made by Andrew L, who a.) is not in a position to give that kind of advice, and b.) mixed his advice with political comments about the mathematical community and professors and top schools.

I agree that the advice is overly optimistic, but it's not my place to say it.

gilkalai comments on "Is MO advice over-optimistic" (9289)

gilkalai — Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:13:36 -0700

I get the feeling that sometimes collective advice in mathoverflow is overoptimistic. I have two examples: one is the thread about "too old for mathematics" http://mathoverflow.net/questions/7120/too-old-for-advanced-mathematics, where the amount of entusiasm looked a bit over the top. Also in another question http://mathoverflow.net/questions/24763/advice-on-changing-topic-for-thesis-problem , most answers looked overlly enthusiastic in the direction of: sure, change the topic, change the advisor if necessary, go after your heart, study several problems at once, etc. which are maybe good for some people but certainly not for all people. Moreover, a single answer of more pessimistic nature (which was perhaps too harsh) got unreasonable down votes (-16 perhaps the MO record), alhough it reflected a legitimate concern.

What do you think?