tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Upvoting/downvoting) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 13:41:03 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (3126) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3126#Comment_3126 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3126#Comment_3126 Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:38:32 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan You can edit questions and answers alike at 2000 rep.

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blinowitz comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (3125) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3125#Comment_3125 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3125#Comment_3125 Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:34:08 -0800 blinowitz Pete L. Clark comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (3124) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3124#Comment_3124 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3124#Comment_3124 Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:31:56 -0800 Pete L. Clark
Added: I just remembered that I did this to remove a "strategic" downvote in an answer by David Speyer. So +1% on that. ]]>
blinowitz comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (3122) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3122#Comment_3122 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=3122#Comment_3122 Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:27:36 -0800 blinowitz Steve Huntsman comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1963) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1963#Comment_1963 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1963#Comment_1963 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:52:06 -0800 Steve Huntsman Harald Hanche-Olsen comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1948) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1948#Comment_1948 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1948#Comment_1948 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:40:03 -0800 Harald Hanche-Olsen @Qiaochu: I assumed Steve meant for the person voting.

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1940) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1940#Comment_1940 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1940#Comment_1940 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:57:49 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan @Steve: Do you mean for the person voting or the person being voted on?

@hanche: If Steve means for the person being voted on, one could imagine a (highly implausible) scenario whereby a cabal of users downvotes enough responses from a user with 10k+ reputation to get them below 10k reputation, thereby stripping them of access to moderator tools. Again, highly implausible.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1928) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1928#Comment_1928 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1928#Comment_1928 Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:49:09 -0800 Anton Geraschenko I think it's important to have downvotes in the system.

  • They distinguish bad posts from posts that just haven't been up for long. Sometimes you really want to vote a post down for good reason, and it's silly to only allow you to do that by voting everything else up.
  • They give better feedback. For whatever reason, people are more likely to care about the question "why did my post get voted down?" more than "why didn't my post get voted up more?" Being downvoted without a comment is frustrating exactly because you want to improve (more than if you just hadn't gotten an upvote), but don't know how to. So when you downvote, leave a comment saying why, and if possible, also say how the post can be improved. People will listen.

A quick glance at several user pages says that the number of downvotes in the system is very small (perhaps 30 times less common than upvotes), so I don't think that people are casting them thoughtlessly. I don't often see a post with a negative score without any comments explaining what's wrong with the post. If the goal is to make MO friendlier, I think eliminating downvotes is an artificial way to do it and probably won't work. If the goal is to distinguish great posts from good posts, I think that already happens because great posts get more upvotes. Adding the option of upvoting a post twice introduces more confusion about how to vote (which people have enough trouble with already), and begs the question, "why not have the option of voting a post up three times so we can distinguish posts that are better than good, but not quite great?"

I saw a question the other day, I can't remember which, that I had downvoted at some point. It had been edited and made fine, but I hadn't noticed it at the time. When I saw it, it was maybe 10 days after last edit, and I couldn't change my vote.

I thought you could change your vote at any time after the post had been edited. I'll look into this.

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Harald Hanche-Olsen comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1922) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1922#Comment_1922 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1922#Comment_1922 Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:17:26 -0800 Harald Hanche-Olsen @Steve: I don't see the point. Surely, users of high reputation can more easily afford to lose some of it.

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Steve Huntsman comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1908) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1908#Comment_1908 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1908#Comment_1908 Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:35:06 -0800 Steve Huntsman Ryan Budney comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1849) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1849#Comment_1849 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1849#Comment_1849 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 13:04:57 -0800 Ryan Budney GS comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1847) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1847#Comment_1847 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1847#Comment_1847 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:39:03 -0800 GS
I'm sure that as currently run MO will do well; I hope it attracts even more people! ]]>
Andrew Stacey comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1841) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1841#Comment_1841 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1841#Comment_1841 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:33:53 -0800 Andrew Stacey Incidentally, there are a few people in this discussion who I haven't seen before here on meta so they may not be aware of a few things. If this is already known to you all then please forgive me saying it again!

Although MO is run by Anton and his gang, the software underlying it is not under their control. They can do a certain amount (how much is something I'm not sure of) such as installing jsMath, but the core structure is beyond their reach. I think that mucking around with the voting system is one of those things that is beyond their reach.

In that case, as well as discussing it here, it's important to add it as a feature request on the site that the people who write the software use. It's called meta.SE and one of the three discussions that are stuck to the top of the list in this forum has more information about it. In particular, someone who feels strongly about this issue should write a feature request over on meta.SE. Then everyone else who wants it should go and vote for it.

Back on topic, I'd go for the societal solution rather than the technical. I rarely vote something down myself, but I do find it useful as a way of gauging what to look at. Since the default is always to do nothing, the mode here is probably 0 votes. If that's also the mean, then that's a useful statistic. If that's the minimum, then I can't separate "Not worth looking at" from "Nobody's yet understood the question well enough to work out whether it's sensible or not".

If looking for a technical tweak, I would go for the "force commenting if voting down". I do try to comment when I either vote down or vote to close.

It's always tempting to try to constrain bad behaviour by Big Means, but if someone's determined to be nasty then they will be. Perhaps if it were clearer that having questions closed or voted down happens to the best of us, then others wouldn't take it so personally.

(Of course, if it does get personal and someone is systematically voting down other people's posts then that's an abuse of the system and I think that Anton has the Power To Deal With That.)

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Georges Elencwajg comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1837) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1837#Comment_1837 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1837#Comment_1837 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:13:26 -0800 Georges Elencwajg glad to see you took the joke so graciously.
The part where I said you deserved your reputation is my earnest feeling. ]]>
Ilya Nikokoshev comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1835) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1835#Comment_1835 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1835#Comment_1835 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:06:45 -0800 Ilya Nikokoshev Re: eliminate downvoting.

Does anyone have the data on downvoting? How big is really the problem with people getting upset because of it? If there is a problem, is the best solution technical (prohibit downvoting) or societal (come to the equilibrium where posts by novice users get edited and improved rather then downvoted)?

Re: two upvotes

There already exists the instrument you call "second upvote": it's called a positive comment ("Hey, that's cool, let's upvote it for clarity and good introduction")

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1834) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1834#Comment_1834 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1834#Comment_1834 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:05:29 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan @Georges: I guess I asked for that!

I agree that downvotes, if they are ever cast, should be accompanied by an explanation and constructive criticism. If this is too difficult an etiquette to enforce then maybe one solution is to remove downvotes. However, I am not convinced that allowing 2 upvotes per user per question is a good idea: like Georges says, "you have absolutely no guarantee that the [up]voter is more competent than the poster," etc. Consider the following scenario: Terence Tao posts some thoughtful but incomplete partial answer to a question in a field in which he is not an expert. A mathematician more of an expert in the field of the question judges his comment as interesting, though incomplete, so votes it up 1. A less experienced mathematician, seeing a long post by Terence Tao, decides that it must contain deep insights and so votes it up 2. (Not that Terence Tao's posts don't contain deep insights! But I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here.)

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GS comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1833) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1833#Comment_1833 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1833#Comment_1833 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 04:38:50 -0800 GS
@Qiaochu, Gretar: In the same practical vein, I think it's generally agreed by the people who study these things that effort spent encouraging good behavior is proportionately more effective than effort spent discouraging bad behavior. It would seem to follow that allowing up to 2 upvotes and 0 downvotes would be *even more effective* for separating good and great answers from mediocre and bad answers than the current system. I'm not going to address the issue of removing downvotes, though I'm glad you pointed out to me that it's not always so easy to do!

@Ryan: (2) is not, in fact, addressed by favorites, which only apply to questions (as far as I am aware), and have no effect on reputation. As for your reply to (1), I think my reply to Qiaochu is still relevant. ]]>
Georges Elencwajg comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1830) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1830#Comment_1830 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1830#Comment_1830 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 02:26:40 -0800 Georges Elencwajg More importantly: if the question has been upvoted before, the downvote is drowned in the positive votes and effectively disappears.
A few days ago, I drew the attention of an answer's author to some infelicities in his post, while commenting that his answer was interesting overall. He immediately took my remark into account and edited his answer . I think that was a very laudable reaction on his part and we are all the better for it. There are of course many examples like this and I think this kind of behaviour should be encouraged.

PS Given Qiaochu's astronomic (and deserved ) reputation, his advice not to take downvotes personally makes me think of a billionaire's advice not to worry if you are poor :) ]]>
Andrew Stacey comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1826) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1826#Comment_1826 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1826#Comment_1826 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:27:47 -0800 Andrew Stacey The system is mildly geared to encourage positive feedback. It costs rep to downvote something. Admittedly, only 1 point, so one can argue that it should be more.

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Tom LaGatta comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1825) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1825#Comment_1825 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1825#Comment_1825 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:57:21 -0800 Tom LaGatta Ryan Budney comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1824) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1824#Comment_1824 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1824#Comment_1824 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:09:49 -0800 Ryan Budney Pete L. Clark comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1823) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1823#Comment_1823 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1823#Comment_1823 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:57:46 -0800 Pete L. Clark
I haven't tried it, but I think just changing a tag (and then changing it back!) would count as sufficient editing in order to be able to change your vote, so is a move available to most serious MOers. Of course it is a ridiculous hack which has the annoying side effect of bumping the question up to the top of the active list. ]]>
Ryan Budney comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1821) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1821#Comment_1821 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1821#Comment_1821 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:03:20 -0800 Ryan Budney
Like Amazeen I'd like to have the ability to remove a downvote after a post has been modified. The timeframe is a little too constrained right now. ]]>
Grétar Amazeen comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1815) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1815#Comment_1815 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1815#Comment_1815 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:08:19 -0800 Grétar Amazeen I see where you are coming from Stephen, but at the moment I agree with Qiaochu about downvoting answers. I try myself to remember to see if answers or questions that I downvote are edited and mede better, and then undo my downvote or even upvote. I think people should try to do this, and also leave a comment about why they downvote. One thing that is possibly a topic for another thread is the fact you can't change your vote if the question hasn't been edited for a while. I saw a question the other day, I can't remember which, that I had downvoted at some point. It had been edited and made fine, but I hadn't noticed it at the time. When I saw it, it was maybe 10 days after last edit, and I couldn't change my vote.

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1812) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1812#Comment_1812 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1812#Comment_1812 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:15:45 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan I'm agnostic about whether questions should be downvoted or not, but I think it's very important that the ability to downvote answers should be retained. Sometimes answers are just wrong or otherwise unhelpful and that should be reflected when answers are ranked by votes; this is important information for people wanting to know the answer to the question but who don't have the expertise to judge whether an answer is correct or not. People should learn not to take votes on answers personally.

Besides, enough people are active that great answers already attract a lot more votes than good answers.

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GS comments on "Upvoting/downvoting" (1811) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1811#Comment_1811 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/160/upvotingdownvoting/?Focus=1811#Comment_1811 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:03:00 -0800 GS
The suggestion is: eliminate downvoting, and allow up to 2 upvotes per person per post.

The main benefits I see, in order of decreasing importance:

(1) It makes the site more welcoming and friendly, which is absolutely essential.
(2) It makes it easier to distinguish good answers from great ones without downvoting good answers.

I'm not entirely sure what the objections (those not of a technical nature) will be, so I won't try to anticipate any. ]]>