tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:16:43 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12882) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12882#Comment_12882 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12882#Comment_12882 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:57:31 -0800 nielkj Pete L. Clark comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12879) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12879#Comment_12879 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12879#Comment_12879 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:41:04 -0800 Pete L. Clark @nielkj: He has definitely been combative with me. All I was doing was pressing him for details, while continually making clear that I had no "skepticism" towards his ideas whatsoever and only wanted to understand them better. He did not answer any of my questions. He did send me an unsolicited private email in which he gave me some further links -- which I appreciate -- but the rest of the email was rather insulting. In particular, he seems to have decided that I don't know much analysis based upon the fact that I cannot supply a proof that the Weierstrass Approximation Theorem allows one to extend the derivative from the class of polynomials to all continuously differentiable functions. But come on -- the WAT says no such thing. Is this a major concern of mine with his work? Not at all -- it seems to simply be an offhand remark that a mathematician made that turned out not to be true. If you follow me on this website, you'll find plenty of instances of that sort of thing coming from me. But his reaction was frustrating: it discouraged me from further engaging him.

On the other hand, let me say that I did spend some time reading some of the materials on his webpage. His short "textbook" had the most details -- including some details that were not supplied on my requests here -- and I think there is definitely some interesting mathematical content there. What he has written is incomplete by any standard -- there are, for instance, whole blank sections in the text -- and it is way underexplained from the pedagogical side (I.e., given that we agree that most freshman calculus students actually get very little out of the formal definitions of limits and derivatives, is there any reason to believe that replacing one technical foundation they ignore with another technical foundation they will mostly ignore is going to make any significant difference?). But as a mathematician I definitely enjoyed parts of his work and acquired insight from them. When I have the time I would like to take some notes on it and think harder about how or why to incorporate some of these ideas into my teaching (probably not at the calculus level, but that's okay).

I feel the need for some concluding paragraph summing up my take on the situation, but I guess it's pretty clear that I find it rather strange and have very mixed feelings about it. That will have to do for now.

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nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12877) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12877#Comment_12877 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12877#Comment_12877 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:20:59 -0800 nielkj nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12875) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12875#Comment_12875 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12875#Comment_12875 Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:05:24 -0800 nielkj
"I took a look at what he wrote and got worried that it may be sweeping things under the rug and/or passing the proverbial buck..."

There may be a cultural issue at work here. Michael's way of presenting mathematics informal, but when pressed, he can explain details. This has to do with the way he was trained. There are some parts of the russian school which prefer to express mathematical ideas in a breezy way (the Rochlin school, some who came from the Gelfand school, and some from the
Arnold school). ]]>
Emerton comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12855) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12855#Comment_12855 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12855#Comment_12855 Thu, 27 Jan 2011 11:02:38 -0800 Emerton I found the discussion interesting enough to read parts of, and I liked the answer sufficiently much to upvote it.

Since posting comments does not cause anything to bump, it can be carried on harmlessly by those who want to participate in the thread, while all others can ignore it. Given this, I don't see that fedja and misha should stop unless/until they decide to do so themselves.

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Yemon Choi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12841) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12841#Comment_12841 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12841#Comment_12841 Thu, 27 Jan 2011 08:43:54 -0800 Yemon Choi I rescinded one of my downvotes because, as jbl says, the answer has now at least been fleshed out, and the ratio of detail to "denunciation" has improved.

I'm also inclined to agree with Andrew, but have to admit that if this discussion were taking place on ML's own blog then I would be even less likely to read it. The fact I do occasionally check the discussion going on in that comment thread is more to do with the calibre of the "defenders of the orthodoxy" than with it belonging on MO.

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jbl comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12828) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12828#Comment_12828 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12828#Comment_12828 Thu, 27 Jan 2011 06:40:04 -0800 jbl It is, indeed, extremely hard for anyone else to follow the discussion there.

By the way, I and at least 3 other people down-voted the answer in a much earlier state lacking any worthwhile content (it was basically just a denunciation combined with a link at that point).

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Andrew Stacey comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12825) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12825#Comment_12825 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12825#Comment_12825 Thu, 27 Jan 2011 05:25:48 -0800 Andrew Stacey

Now, is a public discussion of controversial issues appropriate for MO?

I'll say "no". Not because I don't think that these discussions are important, but actually because I think that they are important enough to have somewhere where they can actually be easily followed and participated in than stuffed in the comments on a question that most people won't look at.

Discussions and MO just don't fit well together!

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fedja comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12823) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12823#Comment_12823 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12823#Comment_12823 Thu, 27 Jan 2011 04:29:58 -0800 fedja
Now, is a public discussion of controversial issues appropriate for MO? My reputation is slightly below the magic 10,000, which would make me one of those "people by whom MO is run", but I'll still dare to say "yes" as long as the issue is directly related to our craft and as long as all main participants are qualified to have an opinion on the issue, which is the case here. ]]>
Mariano comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12819) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12819#Comment_12819 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12819#Comment_12819 Thu, 27 Jan 2011 00:13:44 -0800 Mariano The answer and its comment thread have degenerated into something as discussion-y as things come---predictably...

Maybe it is time it were moved to a blog or email or...?

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fedja comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12811) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12811#Comment_12811 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12811#Comment_12811 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:37:07 -0800 fedja
Anyway, back to the main theme.

I do not know why the original post was so severely downvoted. The idea he pushes is rather natural and if anybody figures out how to make it work and tunes it up, I would be willing to give it a try in the business calculus course. By the way, it is always useful to have at least one representative of an opposite point of view in such thread who spent some time developing his methods and can present at least something to show how the alternative might work or fail. ]]>
Harry Gindi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12810) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12810#Comment_12810 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12810#Comment_12810 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:32:19 -0800 Harry Gindi

"Promotion of obscurantism" -- you know, some people say that about higher topos theorists, too.

Yeah, but those people don't know what they're talking about. First of all, everything is as precisely defined, and the underlying ideas are easy to grok. As usual, the devil is in the details (the underlying ideas are far simpler than the underlying ideas in algebraic geometry, for instance (of course not that I'm implying that algebraic geometers are obscurantists either (quite the opposite, in fact))).

If that still isn't convincing, I suggest that such people take a look at Lurie's DAG I, where he applies the general theory to show that the fundamental category of a stable $\infty$-category (the definition of this is extremely elegant) is a triangulated category, where the shift autoequivalence (whatever you call it) (resp. its inverse) is induced by the natural suspension functor (resp. loop functor).

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dan petersen comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12809) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12809#Comment_12809 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12809#Comment_12809 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:29:19 -0800 dan petersen nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12795) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12795#Comment_12795 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12795#Comment_12795 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:06:42 -0800 nielkj Harry Gindi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12794) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12794#Comment_12794 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12794#Comment_12794 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:57:53 -0800 Harry Gindi You lied! That's not the quote! I looked it up!

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Storkle comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12793) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12793#Comment_12793 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12793#Comment_12793 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:50:47 -0800 Storkle Harry, since you seem to hold documentary film in high regard, let me quote from the documentary "Man on Fire", in which Christopher Walken has this to say: "A man can be. an artist. at anything. Food, whatever. Creasy's art is literary criticism. And death. He's about to paint his masterpiece." Presumably your blanket denunciation of literary critics does not include Creasy? Because he will come for you.

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Harry Gindi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12791) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12791#Comment_12791 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12791#Comment_12791 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:36:38 -0800 Harry Gindi

Documentary? Are you talking about the Rodney Dangerfield comedy film?

Yes.

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Yemon Choi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12790) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12790#Comment_12790 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12790#Comment_12790 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:30:54 -0800 Yemon Choi Seconding what Hailong has said; and seconding Andy's admonition to Harry. (I'm resisting the temptation to argue the rights and wrongs of Harry's/Hardy's claims, because that's not really the issue; the issue is that it just derails this thread.)

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Todd Trimble comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12789) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12789#Comment_12789 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12789#Comment_12789 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:30:47 -0800 Todd Trimble Documentary? Are you talking about the Rodney Dangerfield comedy film?

+1 to Andy.

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Andy Putman comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12787) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12787#Comment_12787 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12787#Comment_12787 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:22:45 -0800 Andy Putman Harry Gindi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12786) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12786#Comment_12786 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12786#Comment_12786 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:18:23 -0800 Harry Gindi

@Harry: there are many literary critics, and I wouldn't paint them all with the same tarbrush. Perhaps you are thinking of a certain type or school of literary critic?

Me being me, I'm going to respond with a quote from Hardy's Apology:

Statesmen despise publicists, painters despise art-critics, and physiologists, physicists, or mathematicians have usually similar feelings: there is no scorn more profound, or on the whole more justifiable, than that of the men who make for the men who explain.

Which does not answer your question, but having gone to the library and looked through the massive tomes of literary criticism, I can say for sure that 99% of it is pure nonsense. I recall the scene in the (completely true and not at all fictional) documentary Back to School:

Diane: You didn't write this paper, Thornton... And I'll tell you something else: Whoever did write this doesn't know the first thing about Kurt Vonnegut!
[cut to Thornton's dorm suite]
Thornton Melon: [on the phone] ... and another thing, Vonnegut! I'm gonna stop payment on the check!
[Kurt tells him off]
Thornton Melon: Fuck me? Hey, Kurt, can you read lips, fuck you! Next time I'll call Robert Ludlum!
[hangs up]

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nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12785) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12785#Comment_12785 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12785#Comment_12785 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:55:35 -0800 nielkj Hailong Dao comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12783) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12783#Comment_12783 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12783#Comment_12783 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:41:08 -0800 Hailong Dao Dear all,

May be it is just me, but I feel a little uneasy reading all this discussion about personal details. I am not sure Misha employment status (and other juicy information about him) is relevant to the question. Can we close this thread please ? Thank you.

Long

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Todd Trimble comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12782) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12782#Comment_12782 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12782#Comment_12782 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:02 -0800 Todd Trimble @nielkj: we are mostly in agreement then.

However, Misha/Michael, whatever his employment status, doesn't do himself any good carrying on as he does. He is really, as Pete found out, insulting to his interlocutors.

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nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12781) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12781#Comment_12781 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12781#Comment_12781 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:32:03 -0800 nielkj Todd Trimble comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12780) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12780#Comment_12780 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12780#Comment_12780 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:31:22 -0800 Todd Trimble @Harry: there are many literary critics, and I wouldn't paint them all with the same tarbrush. Perhaps you are thinking of a certain type or school of literary critic?

It sounded to me that nielkj was suggesting that the mathematicians there were just about as fawning in their attentions to said critic as the paparazzi, in other words that we mathematician-types are equally taken in by superficial trappings of reputation. (It's perhaps a little ironic to be talking about reputation here however!)

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Harry Gindi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12779) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12779#Comment_12779 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12779#Comment_12779 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:24:35 -0800 Harry Gindi

The individual in question was a famous literary critic.

To be fair, this person was a literary critc. Not only do I not have respect for them, I also think that they do active harm through promotion of obscurantism.

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Todd Trimble comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12778) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12778#Comment_12778 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12778#Comment_12778 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:14:14 -0800 Todd Trimble @Qiaochu: yes, it's the same guy.

@nielkj: I personally am not "worried" whether Misha has a PhD, but since he seems not to be very capable of having a civil conversation about his chosen topic, I thought it might be good to counterbalance any impression that he is a <i>complete flake</i> with the observation that he does have a substantial mathematical background. I don't see that registering that data point is in any way elitist -- it is consonant with what you wrote in the last sentence of your first comment here.

The interactions I had with him on Armstrong's blog did not, however, suggest that he was in any way a deep thinker; what I saw was a great deal of sloppiness. Are you seriously comparing him to Gromov?

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nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12774) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12774#Comment_12774 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12774#Comment_12774 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:12:03 -0800 nielkj
I recall a time when I was at Oberwolfach when a famous personage (not a mathematician) came to visit. The individual in question was a famous literary critic. The mathematicians behaved only slightly better than the papparazzi. ]]>
Harald Hanche-Olsen comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12771) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12771#Comment_12771 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12771#Comment_12771 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:34:33 -0800 Harald Hanche-Olsen I haven't really followed the discussion very closely, but I thought I might point out that it is not at all impossible for one person to be totally brilliant and to behave like a complete bastard at the same time. In fact, it seems to be disturbingly common. Perhaps being brilliant and misunderstood can push a person towards the nasty end of the behaviour spectrum, which certainly is unlikely to improve the “misunderstood” part.

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12768) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12768#Comment_12768 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12768#Comment_12768 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:10:33 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan This is Livshits we're talking about? The same Michael Livshits who used to start flame wars on John Armstrong's blog?

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WillieWong comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12766) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12766#Comment_12766 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12766#Comment_12766 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:09:34 -0800 WillieWong @nielkj: actually, my impression of this thread is that he didn't do that: the posts were deleted by a moderator (see Qiaochu's response above). So in so far as the originally stated topic of this discussion is concerned, that much has already been settled.

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WillieWong comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12765) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12765#Comment_12765 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12765#Comment_12765 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:06:46 -0800 WillieWong @nielkj: is he as combative in person as he is in the discussion linked above? I took a look at what he wrote and got worried that it may be sweeping things under the rug and/or passing the proverbial buck, and had in mind to ask a question about his use of the Weierstrass approximation for clarification. Then I read down and saw how he responded to fedja and Pete Clark and decided not to bother trying to climb over his defensive wall. Part of this may be due to the medium: people always sound more hostile over the internet. But it would be a shame if his modus operandi makes it difficult for people to get to the core of his ideas.

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nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12763) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12763#Comment_12763 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12763#Comment_12763 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 06:49:57 -0800 nielkj nielkj comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12762) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12762#Comment_12762 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12762#Comment_12762 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 06:40:28 -0800 nielkj
Incidentally, he has done serious mathematics: he has been credited with answering a conjecture of Melrose on the inverse scattering matrix. ]]>
sean tilson comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12761) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12761#Comment_12761 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12761#Comment_12761 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 05:20:02 -0800 sean tilson
Livshits gave a colloquium talk at Wayne State last fall. I got the impression that this is a project he has spent a lot of time and blood on. I think Todd is right in that this cause is a somewhat religious one for him. ]]>
Pete L. Clark comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12760) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12760#Comment_12760 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12760#Comment_12760 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 04:16:41 -0800 Pete L. Clark @Todd: well, what can I say? You did warn me. I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt, though: just because other people have had problems with someone doesn't mean I will. Not necessarily, I mean!

Note also: I guess I took from your advice not to try to argue with him. I didn't realize that I shouldn't try to question him for understanding!

About the biographical data: I couldn't find any evidence that Mr. Livshits has a PhD (which is not to say of course that he doesn't have one). His own resume lists a 1974 Master's degree in Leningrad and that he spent five years as a graduate student at Brandeis. He has one MathSciNet publication.

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Todd Trimble comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12759) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12759#Comment_12759 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12759#Comment_12759 Wed, 26 Jan 2011 03:57:51 -0800 Todd Trimble @Pete: I warned you! But I should have said, "don't engage him at all, unless you like getting into long drawn-out interchanges that go nowhere," because this is the (predictable) course it would take. (Misha has a mathematics PhD, from Brown University if I remember correctly, and I think he may have written a few papers. But as I say, this business to do away with limits is something of a religious cause with him, and he is ready to attack all comers-on. It's strange, and a little sad.)

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Pete L. Clark comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12757) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12757#Comment_12757 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12757#Comment_12757 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:25:14 -0800 Pete L. Clark On the other hand, I have just recently tried to engage the responder in question, and I am already quite frustrated. The latest downvote on the answer is mine.

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Pete L. Clark comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12756) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12756#Comment_12756 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12756#Comment_12756 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:15:05 -0800 Pete L. Clark To be clear: I was not suggesting that the moderators' involvement should be disciplinary. I just meant that we seem to have entered a periodic cycle of downvoting, locking/deletion and reposting, and that this is a waste of people's time (including the responder). So some intervention seems helpful.

Let me also say that I am sincerely interested in the ideas expressed in the responder's post, although I don't yet understand them very well and feel that, perhaps, they are not being expressed very clearly. In any case, in that it is a program for doing calculus without limits, it is 100% on target as an answer to the question.

[@Yemon: I have no idea what you're talking about. But that's okay with me if it's okay with you. :)]

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Ben Webster comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12755) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12755#Comment_12755 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12755#Comment_12755 Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:22:24 -0800 Ben Webster Fedja, That was my opinion and seems to now be the consensus among the moderators. That's why the answer has been undeleted. I haven't heard anything from Scott about what led him to delete the answer in the first place.

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fedja comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12732) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12732#Comment_12732 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12732#Comment_12732 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 22:36:00 -0800 fedja Yemon Choi comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12727) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12727#Comment_12727 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12727#Comment_12727 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 21:25:27 -0800 Yemon Choi Pete: coincidentally, I was rewatching the cartoon+song "The Cat Came Back" only a few days ago...

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Pete L. Clark comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12722) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12722#Comment_12722 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12722#Comment_12722 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 13:40:02 -0800 Pete L. Clark And now the answer has been posted for a third time. It seems like a situation in which the moderators will want to contact the user.

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12716) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12716#Comment_12716 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12716#Comment_12716 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:00:26 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan Actually, both answers were locked and deleted by Scott Carnahan.

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Todd Trimble comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12715) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12715#Comment_12715 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12715#Comment_12715 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:10:00 -0800 Todd Trimble A little heads up: Misha has been known to get into long wrangles about this sort of thing (as signaled by his referring to "foes"). It seems to be almost like a religious thing with him. My advice would be not to engage him in argument at all.

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WillieWong comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12714) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12714#Comment_12714 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12714#Comment_12714 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:03:10 -0800 WillieWong @jbl: 10K+ users and moderators can see deleted answers. I believe if you have suspicion like this you can flag the post in question for moderator attention.

As to what should be done with this: for a non-CW question this is gaming the system. And I think the moderators probably have established practice of dealing with this (warning + suspension etc). For CW questions, you can always downvote it again: downvoting community wiki answers does not incur a penalty on the voter.

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jbl comments on "Deleting an answer to shed downvotes?" (12713) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12713#Comment_12713 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/915/deleting-an-answer-to-shed-downvotes/?Focus=12713#Comment_12713 Mon, 24 Jan 2011 06:55:30 -0800 jbl I'm fairly certain that this answer http://mathoverflow.net/questions/40082/why-do-we-teach-calculus-students-the-derivative-as-a-limit/53042#53042 was posted over the weekend and received several down-votes; it seems that Misha has simply deleted the downvoted version and reposted an identical answer. Am I right about this, and if so, what's the appropriate thing to do?

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