tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions) 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher rwbarton comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5164) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5164#Comment_5164 2010-04-27T22:08:55-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 rwbarton http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/6/ (@fgdorais: typical usage on the Internet would do little to dispel this notion...) Happily, VA has undeleted a bunch (maybe all, AFAIK) of his answers. (@fgdorais: typical usage on the Internet would do little to dispel this notion...)

Happily, VA has undeleted a bunch (maybe all, AFAIK) of his answers.

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Will Jagy comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5156) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5156#Comment_5156 2010-04-27T12:58:41-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Will Jagy http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/208/ Let's see: VA has made some mathematical comments as recently as two days ago. At the very real risk of seeming patronizing, I added a comment to his own answer to his Latex question to the effect ...
About words, my parents were both unusually literate, and I read voraciously as a youngster, so there were words I ran across myself that I never heard aloud. The most public resulting embarrassment was a college class on the English Romantic poets in which I read aloud from a poem and mispronounced the word "heifer," which means a young cow.]]>
François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5154) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5154#Comment_5154 2010-04-27T12:31:39-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ (Thanks Will! I did not actually know that, I always thought discreet was just an alternate spelling. I learned English mostly by reading math and watching cartoons, which has strange side effects.) (Thanks Will! I did not actually know that, I always thought discreet was just an alternate spelling. I learned English mostly by reading math and watching cartoons, which has strange side effects.)

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5153) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5153#Comment_5153 2010-04-27T12:26:32-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ @Will: yes, I emailed VA last week, but I never heard back. It's possible that he doesn't actually check the email listed in his profile. @Will: yes, I emailed VA last week, but I never heard back. It's possible that he doesn't actually check the email listed in his profile.

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Will Jagy comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5148) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5148#Comment_5148 2010-04-27T11:24:05-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Will Jagy http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/208/ Hi, Folks. Have you thought of a way of contacting VA individually, saying, I imagine, that while general opinion varies among those burdened with the responsibility of shepherding MO during its ... Notes: (1)even from my ordinary MO account, I can see that VA has edited his Latex answer recently, but has not answered any math questions. (2) fgdorais, it was not until graduate school that I realized discrete and discreet were different words, possible typo of course.]]> Andrew Stacey comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5142) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5142#Comment_5142 2010-04-27T10:51:14-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ @Qiaochu: that's what I'm trying to find out: is it more offensive to vote to close a question or to edit it to try to keep it open? (I'm taking as given that the question in question is borderline) @Qiaochu: that's what I'm trying to find out: is it more offensive to vote to close a question or to edit it to try to keep it open? (I'm taking as given that the question in question is borderline)

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5137) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5137#Comment_5137 2010-04-27T08:58:58-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Qiaochu Yuan http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/13/ I have seen at least one user get offended when someone else made a relatively minor edit to their question / answer. I don't think this has been an issue, either because people don't notice when ... I have seen at least one user get offended when someone else made a relatively minor edit to their question / answer. I don't think this has been an issue, either because people don't notice when their questions get edited or because most people are reluctant to edit questions substantially, but it's something to keep in mind.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5133) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5133#Comment_5133 2010-04-27T08:01:20-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ People are usually happy for some help and feedback. That made me think of the third level of action, which is simply to leave a comment saying something that you hope is helpful (this certainly is ...

People are usually happy for some help and feedback.

That made me think of the third level of action, which is simply to leave a comment saying something that you hope is helpful (this certainly is done at the moment). This gives the original author most control, but is least satisfactory as far as MO is concerned.

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Noah Snyder comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5132) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5132#Comment_5132 2010-04-27T07:57:48-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Noah Snyder http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/59/ Also editing a question still leaves the original author in control of the situation, unlike closing which feels like someone took something away from you. Noah Snyder comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5131) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5131#Comment_5131 2010-04-27T07:40:12-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Noah Snyder http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/59/ My vote is that we should be much quicker to edit than to close in the situation Andrew described. Edit, leave a comment explaining why you edited, and say that the author should feel free to revert ... François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5127) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5127#Comment_5127 2010-04-27T06:18:38-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ Andrew, that's an excellent question! In principle, edits should only be done only when you are sure that you are preserving the meaning of the question. In the cases you describe, the intent of the ... Andrew, that's an excellent question!

In principle, edits should only be done only when you are sure that you are preserving the meaning of the question. In the cases you describe, the intent of the edit is to change the meaning, but I think this is sometimes justifiable. A concrete example of this is when I edited the first paragraph of How do I see LaTeX math on any web page? My edit was substantial enough that I did change the meaning of the original question. My reasoning in this case was that if my edit did not preserve the intended meaning of the question, then the question clearly ought to be closed.

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Andrea comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5123) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5123#Comment_5123 2010-04-27T04:41:14-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andrea http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/170/ I wouldn't mind having my question edited if it was (plainly) not clear. Maybe with a comment about why it could have more than one interpretation and so it was changed. I only would mind if this ... I wouldn't mind having my question edited if it was (plainly) not clear. Maybe with a comment about why it could have more than one interpretation and so it was changed. I only would mind if this happened so many times that it would become community-wiki, but I don't think that's the case.

On the other hand, I would surely mind if one of my question was closed.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5122) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5122#Comment_5122 2010-04-27T04:03:13-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Let me throw something else into the mix. Suppose that there is a question that I feel is a bit borderline. Maybe it's a little vague, or a little argumentative. Perhaps I can see that it could be ... Let me throw something else into the mix. Suppose that there is a question that I feel is a bit borderline. Maybe it's a little vague, or a little argumentative. Perhaps I can see that it could be interpreted in two ways: one which would be okay, one which wouldn't be. Not wanting to see the "bad" interpretation, I vote to close, leaving a note as to why I thought it should be closed. Maybe, instead, I should have edited the question so that the "good" interpretation is the obvious one.

Which is worse: having your question closed, or having it edited?

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François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5121) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5121#Comment_5121 2010-04-26T22:00:25-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ +1 Anton: For the history lesson. +1 Anton: For the history lesson.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5118) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5118#Comment_5118 2010-04-26T21:21:13-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ this would have to be reevaluated if there was a sudden flood of crap questions, but I see no evidence that will happen. See the two threads I linked to above relating to "fluffy" ...

this would have to be reevaluated if there was a sudden flood of crap questions, but I see no evidence that will happen.

See the two threads I linked to above relating to "fluffy" questions for examples from MO history where people felt like there was a flood (or at least a substantial trickle) of irritating questions which were not homework, and were even kinda on topic.

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François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5117) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5117#Comment_5117 2010-04-26T21:14:28-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ I'm puzzled. I can't think of that many closed questions "posted in good faith by an actual mathematician," so I can't imagine that those are such a big problem. On the other hand, there ... I'm puzzled. I can't think of that many closed questions "posted in good faith by an actual mathematician," so I can't imagine that those are such a big problem. On the other hand, there seems to be a problem with the "thought police" driving away certain people. So what is the real problem?

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5114) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5114#Comment_5114 2010-04-26T20:58:42-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ I think the goal of closing questions is to eliminate questions which are 1. completely inappropriate (eg the question about why mathematicians are stuck up that was posted recently), and 2. ...

I think the goal of closing questions is to eliminate questions which are 1. completely inappropriate (eg the question about why mathematicians are stuck up that was posted recently), and 2. obviously low-level homework, like calculus or linear algebra or trivial group theory.

There are other reasons to close a question. For example, as Yemon was saying, vague questions should be closed since they do not disappear from the front page: they torment important people in the MO community and they typically get edited after they've gotten a few answers, making the answers non-nonsensical, to everybody's annoyance. See this post of mine for more on this.

For another example, fluffy (usually [big-list] or [soft-question]) questions should often be closed. A certain density of such questions is okay, but too many of them makes the site annoying to people trying to do some real mathematics. See these threads for more on this.

For a third example, discussion questions should often be closed. A discussion question may seem like a good idea, even to an actual mathematician, but they are actually extremely frustrating to have on MO. See all these threads for more on this.

I think it makes sense to regularly re-evaluate our reasons for doing what we do, but we should at least look back to see what our reasons were in the first place. If we're going to do that, then we'd better also leave a record of what our new reasons are so we have some wisdom to lean on down the line. That's why I'm really stressing that "borderline" questions should become threads on meta. If we decide to just leave everything that's not blatantly offensive or a homework question open, then we'll end up with a sucky site and we won't even know why.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5113) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5113#Comment_5113 2010-04-26T20:58:37-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ @Andy: I don't think it's productive to try to set this kind of policy without talking about specific examples. We'll expend a lot of energy and end up realizing that we've missed something ... @Andy: I don't think it's productive to try to set this kind of policy without talking about specific examples. We'll expend a lot of energy and end up realizing that we've missed something anyway.

I agree with you that closing a question posted in good faith by an actual mathematician is almost always a bad idea. But telling other actual mathematicians that they should refrain from objecting to bad questions is also a bad idea. These two rules of thumb almost never clash, but they do occasionally. When that happens in the future, we should react thoughtfully, not follow some rule we came up with today.

To quote one of Noah's old posts, " building up too many policies and then enforcing the policies rather than the reasons behind those policies is dangerous." And to repeat what I said then, meta is meant to be a repository of reasons as well as policies. The point of a policy is to keep you from having to revisit the full argument every time you make a decision, not to keep you from ever revisiting the argument. A rule like "don't close questions posted by experienced users" is a good one, but it will admit of exceptions. If somebody wants to break that rule, they should be allowed to (but of course they should be prepared with a good reason for doing so).

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Harry Gindi comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5112) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5112#Comment_5112 2010-04-26T19:55:46-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ If it's a bad question from an unknown(google) with 1 reputation, I still think that we should still close it. If it's a bad question from an unknown(google) with 1 reputation, I still think that we should still close it.

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Andy Putman comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5111) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5111#Comment_5111 2010-04-26T19:49:26-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andy Putman http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/113/ @Anton:I don't think "just leaving them open" is a bad strategy. I think the goal of closing questions is to eliminate questions which are 1. completely inappropriate (eg the ...
I don't think "just leaving them open" is a bad strategy. I think the goal of closing questions is to eliminate questions which are 1. completely inappropriate (eg the question about why mathematicians are stuck up that was posted recently), and 2. obviously low-level homework, like calculus or linear algebra or trivial group theory.

Other than that, if a question is a bad question (for instance, it seems very special and has no motivation), then it should just be ignored. It'll disappear from the front page pretty quickly if no one answers it.

Of course, this would have to be reevaluated if there was a sudden flood of crap questions, but I see no evidence that will happen.

In general, I think that closing a question posted in good faith by an actual mathematician does serious and lasting harm to the reputation of this site. Letting a lousy question hang around for a while before quietly disappearing does not.]]>
Yemon Choi comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5109) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5109#Comment_5109 2010-04-26T19:24:43-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Yemon Choi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/81/ My problem isn't so much with these "borderline" questions, it's with questions that come across as insufficiently motivated, or which haven't given enough thought as to what a desired ... My problem isn't so much with these "borderline" questions, it's with questions that come across as insufficiently motivated, or which haven't given enough thought as to what a desired answer might be. Mais chacun a son gout, to some extent at least...

I would also rather judge questions by their tone and not their subject, if that makes sense.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5106) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5106#Comment_5106 2010-04-26T18:43:59-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ +1 fgdorais, particularly for In the case of borderline questions, I think voting to close is fine so long as you (or someone else) have made a suggestion on how to improve the question. The vote ... +1 fgdorais, particularly for

In the case of borderline questions, I think voting to close is fine so long as you (or someone else) have made a suggestion on how to improve the question. The vote then acts as an ultimatum rather than a definite judgment. The voting system is indeed a little too crude to handle these cases. Ideally, we should be able to lift the ultimatum by removing our vote to close. Until this is fixed, we just have to pay close attention to these cases and vote to reopen when necessary.

@Andy: I sort of agree with you, but what you're advocating is that people change their idea of what constitutes a borderline question, not that people shouldn't vote to close borderline questions. What is "really egregious"? I just don't think this is possible for people to agree on this without some discussion. No matter what we do (aside from failing badly), there will always be a spread of opinions about what questions are acceptable, so there will always be some controversial questions. I think that just closing them and just leaving them open are equally bad strategies.

To that end, I've made a new category on meta, the Is this question acceptable? category. I'll try to make a point of regularly looking that the closed question tool and posting any question that looks "borderline" here. Moderators and 10k+ rep users also have access to this tool (it shows which questions have been recently closed/reopened and which have the most votes to close/reopen).

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François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5105) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5105#Comment_5105 2010-04-26T18:39:39-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ Andy, I think out points of view are not in complete disagreement. We both agree that what is necessary is for us to act in a more measured way when closing questions. The problem appears to be that ... Andy, I think out points of view are not in complete disagreement. We both agree that what is necessary is for us to act in a more measured way when closing questions. The problem appears to be that we are too trigger happy when closing questions, which led to the "thought police" criticism.

This argument has a long history, Emerton and Pete proposed the "preferred user approach" in this thread. Although I understand the need to be welcoming to highly qualified users, I completely disagree with this idea: all discrimination policies are bad.

My point of view is that we should always motivate our closing votes, no matter who is asking the question. We're actually pretty good at doing this with homework and elementary questions. One of the five voters usually posts a comment with a link to the appropriate section of the faq. Why can't we be as thoughtful in other cases? I really liked Hailong's comment to this recently closed question. I think that if we were always this nice, then the "thought police" might not be perceived in such a bad way.

There is no trivial reason to close a question. As a community of mathematicians, we suffer from some side effects of our profession, especially our disdain for trivialities. It's obvious that "left as an exercise to the reader" is not a valid explanation for closing a question, but we sometimes think that "this is off-topic" is sufficient. It's unreasonable to assume that the poster will immediately wonder why their question is so clearly off-topic, as one would when reading another not completely transparent assertion in a paper. The reasons for closing a question should be completely transparent in every case.

As I think about this, the more I realize how bad my own behavior has been. I think we could all use a moment of reflection on this subject.

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Noah Snyder comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5102) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5102#Comment_5102 2010-04-26T17:57:47-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Noah Snyder http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/59/ Andy's right, we're not in danger of being swamped by boderline questions. Closing also doesn't usually make borderline questions that don't attract decent answers fall off the front page much faster. Andy Putman comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5099) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5099#Comment_5099 2010-04-26T17:05:48-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andy Putman http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/113/ @fgdorais:We shouldn't think of it as being negative? That'll lead to the same problems we've been having. We should think of it as being serious and insulting, and reserve it for only the worst ...
We shouldn't think of it as being negative? That'll lead to the same problems we've been having. We should think of it as being serious and insulting, and reserve it for only the worst cases.

Everyone warns of the front page being crowded with crap, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. As long as we prevent crackpots and people with service course level problems from posting, I don't think we'll have any problems.]]>
François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5090) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5090#Comment_5090 2010-04-26T14:23:17-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ then just treat everyone with great respect. There's no harm done! Absolutely! That's why I disagree with any double standards. In my closing statement "I think that if we stop thinking of ...

then just treat everyone with great respect. There's no harm done!

Absolutely! That's why I disagree with any double standards.

In my closing statement "I think that if we stop thinking of closing questions as a negative judgment," the we means us, the ones doing the closing. Having your question closed will always be upsetting, just like getting pulled over for speeding and all sorts of similar situations.

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Pete L. Clark comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5089) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5089#Comment_5089 2010-04-26T14:11:20-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Pete L. Clark http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/64/ @Andy Putnam: +1, I completely agree.I don't think it is snobbery (or, if it is, it is a form of snobbery that I endorse). One of the things that I have tried to bring up from time to time on meta ...
I don't think it is snobbery (or, if it is, it is a form of snobbery that I endorse). One of the things that I have tried to bring up from time to time on meta is the following principle:

MO is a subset of the worldwide community of research mathematicians. It is not a rival community. Therefore when a conflict arises, it is more important to maintain the ethics and social mores of the former community than any MO-specific ethics. This includes treating people who are established with great respect. (As I have also said before, if you find it too hard to figure out who deserves great respect or find giving great respect to famous mathematicians too much of a double standard....then just treat everyone with great respect. There's no harm done!)]]>
Andy Putman comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5088) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5088#Comment_5088 2010-04-26T13:52:51-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Andy Putman http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/113/ I don't think there is any possible way to make closing questions not seem like a negative judgement. Indeed, despite the fact that I know the system pretty well, I would still feel a bit insulted ...
I don't want to sound too argumentative here, but in these discussions people always claim that things will eventually get to the point where people are not insulted by having their questions closed. This strikes me as utter nonsense, and we have already seen several fantastic mathematicians driven from the site by this attitude.

There needs to be a better (read : less insulting) system than the current fantasy wherein problematic questions are closed, then edited, and then reopened.

EDIT : It should be clear from the above, but +1 to Noah's original suggestion.

EDIT 2 : My personal policy is that I will not vote to close a question posed by someone who is a clearly a professional mathematician (this certainly includes anyone with an academic job, but it extends quite a bit further than that) unless there is something really egregious about it. This attitude probably sounds a bit snobby, but I view it as basic professionalism. I also wouldn't shoot down their question if it came up e.g. over tea, even if I thought it was lousy in some way.]]>
Noah Snyder comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5087) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5087#Comment_5087 2010-04-26T13:44:50-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Noah Snyder http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/59/ In the case of 22569 can we combine the questions and reopen? François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5086) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5086#Comment_5086 2010-04-26T13:16:24-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ By the way, I think the recent events have paralyzed some of our regular process. For example, David Speyer pointed out (too discreetly?) that 22569 is a duplicate of 3596, but the question is now ... By the way, I think the recent events have paralyzed some of our regular process. For example, David Speyer pointed out (too discreetly?) that 22569 is a duplicate of 3596, but the question is now collecting lots of answers instead of being closed.

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François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5085) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5085#Comment_5085 2010-04-26T13:11:50-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ Expanding on my earlier thought... Closing borderline questions is not all that bad. Borderline questions attract borderline or worse answers, which will actually undermine the question. For ... Expanding on my earlier thought...

Closing borderline questions is not all that bad. Borderline questions attract borderline or worse answers, which will actually undermine the question. For example, if the question is slightly argumentative then it is likely that someone will pick up on that and start an argument. If the question is too imprecise, then it might get divergent answers and correcting the question becomes very awkward. Closing the question prevents situations like that to happen: no answers can be posted until the question is reopened.

I think that if we stop thinking of closing questions as a negative judgment, and we make that clear to all users, then the process can start working smoothly.

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François G. Dorais comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5084) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5084#Comment_5084 2010-04-26T12:40:43-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 François G. Dorais http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/144/ In the case of borderline questions, I think voting to close is fine so long as you (or someone else) have made a suggestion on how to improve the question. The vote then acts as an ultimatum rather ... In the case of borderline questions, I think voting to close is fine so long as you (or someone else) have made a suggestion on how to improve the question. The vote then acts as an ultimatum rather than a definite judgment. The voting system is indeed a little too crude to handle these cases. Ideally, we should be able to lift the ultimatum by removing our vote to close. Until this is fixed, we just have to pay close attention to these cases and vote to reopen when necessary.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5081) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5081#Comment_5081 2010-04-26T12:00:15-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ That question is closed now, but I didn't get the chance to vote to close it. I left this comment: I was also going to vote to close. It could be that there's some big gap in my education, but I ... That question is closed now, but I didn't get the chance to vote to close it. I left this comment:

I was also going to vote to close. It could be that there's some big gap in my education, but I can't make much sense of the question. My guess is that you're trying to maximize $x_1$ subject to the condition that $x_1$ is less than $\delta$ and less than $0$, but some English explaining what you're actually trying to do would really help. As is, it seems like you're just trying to compute $\min{0,\delta}$.

Please speak up if you feel like this is not a good reason to close (or to tell me that I don't know anything about linear programming and I should go away).

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Harry Gindi comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5078) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5078#Comment_5078 2010-04-26T11:48:30-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ Correction: Four votes to close. =D Correction: Four votes to close. =D

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Hailong Dao comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5077) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5077#Comment_5077 2010-04-26T11:47:24-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Hailong Dao http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/120/ Just a quick example: I notice this question has been up for 20 hours, and has only 3 votes to close (one was mine). I am curious if it is because people consider it borderline? Just a quick example: I notice this question has been up for 20 hours, and has only 3 votes to close (one was mine). I am curious if it is because people consider it borderline?

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5075) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5075#Comment_5075 2010-04-26T11:35:02-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ it is a serious flaw in the current system that we cannot vote to close and open at the same time. I agree with this (see these two requests). I feel like this would be partially mitigated by ...

it is a serious flaw in the current system that we cannot vote to close and open at the same time.

I agree with this (see these two requests). I feel like this would be partially mitigated by starting a thread on meta. People should also feel free to flag for moderator attention in these situations (e.g. "I'd like to pre-emptively vote to reopen"). I feel much more confident closing or reopening "unilaterally" if the question has such a flag. It's not a great solution, but it's a rare enough problem that we can take care of it "by hand" like this.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5074) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5074#Comment_5074 2010-04-26T11:28:13-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ I think it's important to call some attention to borderline questions if we want to see the benefits of (4). So I agree with Scott that the right thing to do if you think a question is borderline is ... I think it's important to call some attention to borderline questions if we want to see the benefits of (4). So I agree with Scott that the right thing to do if you think a question is borderline is to leave a comment saying so and start a new thread on meta. If you do this, I don't think it matters whether you vote to close. Once there is real discussion about a question (someplace more hospitable than the comments), I think we'll quickly come to a consensus about whether the question should be open or closed. And if we don't, I'm happy to leave the question open.

In the long run, the "don't close borderline questions" strategy simply won't work. Once there really a lot of people who can vote to close, it just doesn't make sense to say "don't vote to close borderline questions" because people will disagree too much about what is a borderline question. But that won't be too big a problem because we'll have enough high rep users to reopen questions swiftly.

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Scott Morrison comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5071) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5071#Comment_5071 2010-04-26T11:01:08-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Scott Morrison http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/3/ At very least, this sounds like a great experiment. Perhaps a good solution upon encountering a "borderline" question is to start a thread on meta! Briefly explain why you're not sure ... At very least, this sounds like a great experiment.

Perhaps a good solution upon encountering a "borderline" question is to start a thread on meta! Briefly explain why you're not sure about the question, say something constructive, and then leave a comment on the actual question saying "There's a discussion of this question going on at meta.mathoverflow.net/xxxxx. It's perfectly okay to ignore that discussion!"

(Stepping back, it's pretty exciting how fast we've gone from not having enough people moderating to having too many! :-)

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Pete L. Clark comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5069) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5069#Comment_5069 2010-04-26T10:56:13-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Pete L. Clark http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/64/ I agree with this sentiment, although it is hard to make precise. (We will not all agree on whether a question is borderline.) One argument in favor of this is a procedural one: IMO, it is a ...
One argument in favor of this is a procedural one: IMO, it is a serious flaw in the current system that we cannot vote to close and open at the same time. Currently a question can get closed even though the vast majority of MO "citizens" (>= 3000 rep) would like it to stay open. Then it goes through a reopening process which -- as we have recently seen -- may not be swift enough for the person who is annoyed that their good question got closed. I am waiting for the question that gets closed, reopened and reclosed. Isn't that just a matter of time?

I am also really coming around in my opinions about "straightforward" questions and questions which "look like they could be homework", but that's a separate thread.

The way I feel now is that if someone asks a coherent, precise question that pertains to university-level mathematics at the theoretical / conceptual level [i.e., asks for a proof rather than just a computation], we should be reluctant to close it. The answer may be something like "Look in this standard text", but what's wrong with that?]]>
Qiaochu Yuan comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5068) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5068#Comment_5068 2010-04-26T10:53:11-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Qiaochu Yuan http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/13/ I've already stopped closing borderline questions myself, so I think this is fine. I've already stopped closing borderline questions myself, so I think this is fine.

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Steve Huntsman comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5067) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5067#Comment_5067 2010-04-26T10:52:46-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Steve Huntsman http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/110/ I agree Emerton comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5066) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5066#Comment_5066 2010-04-26T10:52:31-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Emerton http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/103/ Dear Noah, As you won't be surprised to hear, I agree with this suggestion! Dear Noah,

As you won't be surprised to hear, I agree with this suggestion!

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Noah Snyder comments on "I think we should not vote to close on "borderline" questions" (5065) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/368/i-think-we-should-not-vote-to-close-on-borderline-questions/?Focus=5065#Comment_5065 2010-04-26T10:36:35-07:00 2018-11-04T13:47:15-08:00 Noah Snyder http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/59/ Somewhat often someone will ask a "borderline" question on MO. These tend to result in much discussion on meta. Often we will close such a question, despite it being somewhat ...
Here are my reasons:
1) There aren't borderline questions frequently enough for them to cause a problem. If a particular sort of borderline question starts to become a problem we can deal with it then.
2) Closing questions can lead to unhappiness, so we shouldn't do so without a good reason.
3) Sometimes questions that appear "borderline" actually are excellent questions if the right person happens across it. The recent laTeX controversy is a good example (http://mathoverflow.net/questions/22141/how-do-i-see-latex-math-on-any-web-page). If you reason to vote to close is "MO probably doesn't have the right people to answer this question" then I think instead of closing you should just wait to see if the right person happens to show up.
4) By letting a few more borderline questions get through we'll be better informed about what does and doesn't work well on MO.

Thoughts? Comments? Disagreements?]]>