tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?) 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher geraldedgar comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4813) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4813#Comment_4813 2010-04-18T05:08:15-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 geraldedgar http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/116/ Any system where the entries are re-ordered from time to time is BAD for discussion. jonas comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4810) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4810#Comment_4810 2010-04-18T03:34:50-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 jonas http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/204/ Kevin Lin: if even the staff wants one, they could make it the "official" chanel by mentioning it in the FAQ or some other site documentation and eventually it will get some users. Which ... Kevin Lin: if even the staff wants one, they could make it the "official" chanel by mentioning it in the FAQ or some other site documentation and eventually it will get some users. Which network is it on? I don't want to start a second one.

Update: according to http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/67/mathoverflow-irc-channel/?Focus=703 it's on freenode.

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Kevin Lin comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4809) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4809#Comment_4809 2010-04-18T03:31:08-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Kevin Lin http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/25/ jonas: I think Anton/Scott tried to do that a while ago. I recall the channel being rather dead. jonas: I think Anton/Scott tried to do that a while ago. I recall the channel being rather dead.

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jonas comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4808) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4808#Comment_4808 2010-04-18T03:23:49-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 jonas http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/204/ Mariano: good idea, shall we start a semi-official mathoverflow irc channel? Andrea comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4591) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4591#Comment_4591 2010-04-07T06:18:03-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrea http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/170/ I have filed a feature request on meta.stack-exchange, if you want to have a look. Even if this turns out to be irrelevant, maybe I can use this opportunity to get the minimum reputation on ... I have filed a feature request on meta.stack-exchange, if you want to have a look. Even if this turns out to be irrelevant, maybe I can use this opportunity to get the minimum reputation on meta.stack-exchange to be able to vote up other requests.

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Andrea comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4589) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4589#Comment_4589 2010-04-07T05:09:35-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrea http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/170/ Ehm... I DO NOT want discussions. I hoped I had made that clear... Ehm... I DO NOT want discussions. I hoped I had made that clear...

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Andrew Stacey comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4583) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4583#Comment_4583 2010-04-07T03:03:17-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Just spotted this in Andrea's initial post (emphasis mine): One may argue that a forum has even better facilities (for instance, on a forum you can quote other people) but on the other hand on a ... Just spotted this in Andrea's initial post (emphasis mine):

One may argue that a forum has even better facilities (for instance, on a forum you can quote other people) but on the other hand on a forum there are fixed categories. On StackExchange we have multiple tags for each thread, which allow a finer classification.

Nope. Forums don't have to have fixed categories. On the nForum, registered users can create their own categories if they don't like the ones that I've provided. Moreover, there are extensions to the software running that forum (and this) which allow for tags (I just haven't installed it on the nForum as it hasn't been asked for). There are also extensions that allow for community moderation and for voting on posts. So actually, while it's a lot of work to get SO to act like a forum, it's not that hard to get a forum to act like SO, so if you really want discussions, I suggest using a forum software.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4501) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4501#Comment_4501 2010-04-06T12:20:05-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ I think everybody here has agreed that there shouldn't be long discussions on MO. Not everybody has agreed about whether SE is any good for discussions. My understanding of Andrea's main point is ... I think everybody here has agreed that there shouldn't be long discussions on MO. Not everybody has agreed about whether SE is any good for discussions. My understanding of Andrea's main point is this (Andrea, please correct this if it's wrong):

Regardless of whether SE or MO are good for discussions, some people will believe it is, even if only temporarily. Should we do anything more than we're already doing to prevent people from trying to start discussion questions? If yes, what?

I think the current approach of simply cultivating an atmosphere where discussion questions are discouraged is pretty good. I can't think of any software features that would help. Then again, maybe I'm just unimaginative. Any ideas?

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Andrew Stacey comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4500) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4500#Comment_4500 2010-04-06T12:12:14-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ (Please, I don't need any suggestions on how to have such a discussion! My point was that wherever is the right place, it isn't MO.) (Please, I don't need any suggestions on how to have such a discussion! My point was that wherever is the right place, it isn't MO.)

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Mariano comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4492) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4492#Comment_4492 2010-04-06T09:02:58-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Mariano http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/61/ Andrew, I'd suggest IRC. It surely is something like Web 0.4, but still works great :) Andrew, I'd suggest IRC. It surely is something like Web 0.4, but still works great :)

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Andrew Stacey comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4478) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4478#Comment_4478 2010-04-06T04:41:33-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ I should make clear that I have absolutely no desire to have such a discussion on MO. I have better places to have such discussions (nLab/nForum spring to mind). My intention was purely to show ... I should make clear that I have absolutely no desire to have such a discussion on MO. I have better places to have such discussions (nLab/nForum spring to mind). My intention was purely to show that the current software cannot support such a discussion without either modification or subversion. (I'm not sure how the notification system works with community wiki answers, would we all get notified if we'd all edited it? Not that I particularly care about the answer to that, I just raise it to show that Pete's solution isn't necessarily a workable one). Of course, one could modify the system so that it did allow discussions, but then why reinvent the wheel? There are perfectly good forum software out there (hmm, that sentence doesn't read right ...) and it's much easier to simply install one of them than try to force SO into something that it isn't meant to be.

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Pete L. Clark comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4475) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4475#Comment_4475 2010-04-06T04:11:37-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Pete L. Clark http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/64/ @Andrew: I don't claim that this is an ideal solution, but if your question is not rhetorical: you can post a community wiki answer labelled "This is for discussion with Theo and Konrad ... Harry Gindi comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4472) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4472#Comment_4472 2010-04-06T02:02:33-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ This is what the new @notification system will give us the flexibility to do. This is what the new @notification system will give us the flexibility to do.

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Andrew Stacey comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4471) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4471#Comment_4471 2010-04-06T01:48:09-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ Let me try to make my argument clearer by making it more specific. I would love to have a discussion with Konrad Waldorf and Theo JF on the issues arising from Theo's question ... Let me try to make my argument clearer by making it more specific. I would love to have a discussion with Konrad Waldorf and Theo JF on the issues arising from Theo's question http://mathoverflow.net/questions/19910/whats-the-correct-smooth-structure-on-the-category-of-manifolds. How, exactly, can I do that?

If I post a comment in reply to Konrad's answer, Konrad gets a notification but Theo doesn't. If Konrad then posts a reply to that, neither myself nor Theo get notified! Plus, how do we cope with the limitations on formatting in comments? So maybe we should post answers instead, but then they aren't sorted and also make it confusing to someone interested in the answer to the original question.

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Andrea comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4455) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4455#Comment_4455 2010-04-05T15:20:32-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrea http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/170/ It seems from the replies that I did not make my point very well. I'm NOT trying to encourage discussions on MO; indeed I'd like to see LESS such questions. But since I find StackExchange a good ... It seems from the replies that I did not make my point very well. I'm NOT trying to encourage discussions on MO; indeed I'd like to see LESS such questions. But since I find StackExchange a good sofwtare for discussions (here not everyone agrees) I was wondering whether something can be done.

The main point of my post, which noone addressed, is whether we can formulate a sensible feature request for StackExchange which would favor precise questions with respect to discussions. In particular I don't think a question should bump on top on each reply; instead I'd like to see some adjustment in such a way that questions with few answers stay on top more than the others.

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Scott Morrison comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4444) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4444#Comment_4444 2010-04-05T11:08:17-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Scott Morrison http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/3/ @Mariano, regarding the skew of subjects on the arxiv: I've heard actually that there is still a significant skew, matching the historical origins of the mathematics arxiv(s). There are some fun ... @Mariano,

regarding the skew of subjects on the arxiv: I've heard actually that there is still a significant skew, matching the historical origins of the mathematics arxiv(s). There are some fun statistics at http://arxiv.org/Stats/hcamonthly.html, but I'm not sure there's enough there to see what's going on in this regard.

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Anton Geraschenko comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4439) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4439#Comment_4439 2010-04-05T10:01:57-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Anton Geraschenko http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/2/ I'll state for the record that I think SE is not a good platform for true discussions and that I'm not saying so just because of some sort of intellectual momentum. Rather than reproduce my ... I'll state for the record that I think SE is not a good platform for true discussions and that I'm not saying so just because of some sort of intellectual momentum. Rather than reproduce my reasoning, I'll link to a few places where I think the reasoning was clearly laid out:

@Andrew: If you don't mind my asking, what changed your mind? Was it discussion here on meta (if so, please link to the relevant threads if you can find them), or was it using MO itself?

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Andrew Stacey comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4404) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4404#Comment_4404 2010-04-05T04:54:35-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrew Stacey http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/4/ I strongly disagree with point 1. I find it very hard to follow "discussions" on MO. I laid out my reasons in the thread to which Kevin linked. I dislike the idea that MO should become ... I strongly disagree with point 1. I find it very hard to follow "discussions" on MO. I laid out my reasons in the thread to which Kevin linked.

I dislike the idea that MO should become "All things to all mathematicians". It took me a while to come round to this, but I encourage anyone who thinks like this to read some of the discussions that Anton and I had here on meta to see what led me to change my mind.

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Harry Gindi comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4376) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4376#Comment_4376 2010-04-04T17:57:11-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ @Kevin Lin: The odds of getting an answer on a question are much lower for a lot of the subjects here, although I will admit that it has definitely gotten better. What would be interesting is if ... @Kevin Lin: The odds of getting an answer on a question are much lower for a lot of the subjects here, although I will admit that it has definitely gotten better. What would be interesting is if there were some way to invite people here in underrepresented subjects, if that could possibly work.

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Mariano comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4375) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4375#Comment_4375 2010-04-04T17:46:03-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Mariano http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/61/ The historical example of the arXiv is interesting. Not too long ago a few subject groups predominated significantly there, yet now this is no longer the case AFAICT. The historical example of the arXiv is interesting. Not too long ago a few subject groups predominated significantly there, yet now this is no longer the case AFAICT.

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Kevin Lin comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4374) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4374#Comment_4374 2010-04-04T17:27:32-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Kevin Lin http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/25/ fpqc: I don't think that's a problem per se. But I dunno -- Does "too much" AG somehow indirectly cause people in other fields to post less? fpqc: I don't think that's a problem per se. But I dunno -- Does "too much" AG somehow indirectly cause people in other fields to post less?

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Harry Gindi comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4371) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4371#Comment_4371 2010-04-04T17:09:30-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ @Kevin: That is true, but it's a self-perpetuating problem. As I said, I can't think of any way to deal with it, but maybe someone else has some ideas. @Kevin: That is true, but it's a self-perpetuating problem. As I said, I can't think of any way to deal with it, but maybe someone else has some ideas.

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Kevin Lin comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4370) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4370#Comment_4370 2010-04-04T17:04:12-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Kevin Lin http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/25/ Andrea: I had had similar thoughts at one point: see http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/106/on-discussions-in-somo A bit later, I changed my mind: see ... Andrea: I had had similar thoughts at one point: see http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/106/on-discussions-in-somo

A bit later, I changed my mind: see http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/210/close-cocktail-party-math-and-fourier-transform-for-dummies-and-assorted-comments

I agree that the SE software would probably be reasonable for discussions. But I don't think that's the point. The point is that MO is meant for answering well-posed math questions. I think that if we allowed discussions, we'd run the risk of allowing the site to be overtaken by discussions and we'd possibly compromise the question/answer aspect of the site.

I don't agree with your comment:

Whenever a question has a really precise answer that only a specialist can give, most people just don't reply and the question soon fades into the second page and becomes forgotten.

I don't think it gets forgotten. At the very least, the asker remembers it, the answerers remember it, and Google remembers it. And the next time someone in the world has that same question, they'll be able to find the answer.

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Kevin Lin comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4369) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4369#Comment_4369 2010-04-04T16:50:05-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Kevin Lin http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/25/ fpqc, I think this is simply because there are probably more people on the site who do AG than other subjects. fpqc, I think this is simply because there are probably more people on the site who do AG than other subjects.

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Harry Gindi comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4353) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4353#Comment_4353 2010-04-04T13:14:52-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Harry Gindi http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/55/ I do agree with point 2. However, I'd like to add another point. This site is generally pretty good for hard questions in algebraic geometry, but I've noticed that hard questions in other fields ... I do agree with point 2. However, I'd like to add another point.

This site is generally pretty good for hard questions in algebraic geometry, but I've noticed that hard questions in other fields very often are left unanswered and with a low score. Mediocre questions in algebraic geometry often end up with more votes than much better posts from any given field (and I say this having asked a few mediocre questions in algebraic geometry =p). This effect combined with the number of popular soft-questios/big-lists very often makes it very frustrating to ask anything here at all. The first problem seems like it could be addressed by closing down discussion and big-list questions by moderators, but I'm at a loss on how to deal with the problem I mentioned.

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Andrea comments on "StackExchange is not well suited for discussions... or is it?" (4350) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/329/stackexchange-is-not-well-suited-for-discussions-or-is-it/?Focus=4350#Comment_4350 2010-04-04T06:23:42-07:00 2018-11-04T13:54:14-08:00 Andrea http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/account/170/ We are all quite used to reading (or writing) a standard reply to discussion-y (or discussive) questions, which more or less reads: "Dear xxx, your question is very interesting but it does not ... We are all quite used to reading (or writing) a standard reply to discussion-y (or discussive) questions, which more or less reads: "Dear xxx, your question is very interesting but it does not have a clear answer and leads to discussion. Unfortunately StackExchange, the platform on which MathOverflow runs, is designed for precise questions with a definite answer, and is not very well suited for discussions. You may want to ask the same question in a forum or on a math blog."

I'm starting to wonder whether this is actually true. I should make clear that I like the role that MathOverflow has for math questions, and I don't like very much long and vague discussions. Still, I think that StackExchange is quite a good platform for discussions and less so for questions with a definite answer.

1) StackExchange is a good software for discussions. Indeed it is very easy to follow discussions here. We have favorite questions, feedback whenever someone anwsers or comments our questions and answers, and more important, every time there is an answer, the question is bumped on the top of the main page. All these tools make life easy to follow discussions, certainly more than a blog where everything is linear and long discussions immediately become cumbersome. One may argue that a forum has even better facilities (for instance, on a forum you can quote other people) but on the other hand on a forum there are fixed categories. On StackExchange we have multiple tags for each thread, which allow a finer classification.

2) StackExchange is not a very good software for precise questions with definite answers. Of course, this is not literally true, as both MathOverflow and StackOverflow (at least) show. Still, it is annoying that discussions always get bumped at the top, and it seems that the only reason why the first page is not all about growing children or mathematical jokes is that moderators are patiently keeping track of these discussions and closing them after a while. Whenever a question has a really precise answer that only a specialist can give, most people just don't reply and the question soon fades into the second page and becomes forgotten.

So I think we are really cheating when we write this standard advice. StackExchange IS good for discussions, as it is witnessed by the many active discussions on MathOverflow itself. So, what is the point of this post?

For one, I think that it would be more honest to write that discussions are simply not welcome here. I do not see any technical issue with having discussions, other than flooding MathOverflow and hiding the most interesting math questions.

More concretely, I wonder whether we can make some sensible feature request for StackExchange. For instance, one may want to assign to every question a weight which is more or less inversely proportional to the number of answers already received. The highest the weight, the more plausible you will find the question on top of the list. One may also want to take care of whether the question has an accepted answer.

In this way questions with a few answers will be bumped often, and hopefully get eventually answered. This would discourage big-list questions and help those still waiting for answers. Note that this would be more effective than periodically bumping unanswered questions, since a question may very well have just one or two answers which are irrelevant.

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