tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Unwelcoming tone)

Kevin Buzzard comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8390)

Kevin Buzzard — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:57:06 -0700

@Harry: don't feed the troll.

Noah Snyder comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8388)

Noah Snyder — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:59:03 -0700

+1 Yemon

Yemon Choi comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8387)

Yemon Choi — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:40:19 -0700

Just leave it, Harry. It's Chinatown.

Harry Gindi comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8386)

Harry Gindi — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:32:04 -0700

Why would you bother to post a comment saying, "No comment" when none was solicited from you? I mean, you hit the button that says "add your comments"...

AndrewL comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8379)

AndrewL — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:20:07 -0700

No comment............

Andrew Stacey comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8318)

Andrew Stacey — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 13:37:06 -0700

Presumably Mathematics Overflow is a "community" of individuals with an interest and/or love of mathematics and its applications.

This is not correct. MathOverflow is a website which hopes to support the work of mathematical researchers.

It gives an opportunity to people who seek information with access to other individuals who may have thoughts or ideas that can inform their interests or help them overcome a mathematical hurdle.

This is not correct. The intention, as I read it, is to provide a way to help mathematicians help each other in an effective way. Mathematicians interact at many different levels. At the highest is collaboration. At the bottom is answering specific, definite questions. MathOverflow aims to help that bottom level. Of course, such interactions can lead to higher-level interactions but MathOverflow is not for them.

From my earliest participation in Mathematics Overflow I have been made uncomfortable with what I will refer to as its "unwelcoming" tone - the down voting and the closing of some questions.

This has been addressed by the others. I would add that as it is necessary to filter questions to this site (for the reasons others have said), the question then arises as to when to filter them. The way that the software works here is to filter questions after they have been asked. The idea is to make it as easy as possible for people to use the software so there is no pre-moderation on questions or answers. Down-voting and closure is simply a way of moderating the questions and answers which makes the entry-level as easy as possible.

I have often been inspired to "new" thoughts by homework problems. My point is that one never quite knows where an important source of mathematical inspiration or pleasure will come from.

This is absolutely true (I once got the answer to a research problem I was stuck on in the middle of a lecture), but misses the point entirely. MathOverflow is not meant to encompass everything. To stick with the NYTimes analogy (though I agree with the flaw), if MathOverflow allowed such any question that might lead to a research idea then it wouldn't be like getting the NYTimes, it would be like getting a copy of every single newspaper that is published in New York. There's just too much junk that finding the few nuggets of gold is a waste of time.

That said, I also find the "thought police" comment bordering on offensive. The people behind MathOverflow put in a lot of work to make it what it is and I have never detected anything other than a desire to help other mathematicians. You may disagree with how they have chosen to do that, but to call them "thought police" is quite offensive.

jmalkevitch comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8309)

jmalkevitch — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:25:34 -0700

@Qiaochu Yuan; The reason why I have posted to MO is that I did not think my remarks in community wiki mode and to various "soft-questions" (a term I have also disliked) and research questions were incidental to MO. I guess I am not in the serious research category as you define it, though I feel quite devoted to mathematics and the mathematics community. I will not post to MO in the future. I would not want to spoil things for you and others who may share your views.

Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8303)

Qiaochu Yuan — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:08:39 -0700

@jmalkevitch: the purpose of this site is to redirect expert attention to specific, well-thought-out questions, for the purpose of aiding mathematical researchers. Anything else that goes on here is incidental, and the policies we implement reflect this priority. Leaving vague and ill-defined questions open 1) takes up space and 2) may indicate to some researchers that MO is not a serious enough environment, and may lead to them not participating. Whether they are interesting is irrelevant; at the end of the day, we care more about serious researchers than the average user.

Like Jose, I find the thought police comparison offensive, as well as misinformed. You don't have free speech on MO in the first place; it is privately funded, and the people who maintain it can do whatever they want.

Like AnnanFay, you are now free to move to math.stackexchange.com if you want a freer environment.

Noah Snyder comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8302)

Noah Snyder — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:26:30 -0700

@AnnanFay: No one site can be all things to all people. A lot of people *want* a research only math site, and that's what this site was started for. People who want a different site are free to start one, and math.SE is a great new option!

François G. Dorais comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8298)

François G. Dorais — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:04:38 -0700

Just a minor point in passing... Closing a question is not a permanent action! There have been plenty of reopened questions, sometimes after very minor edits.

Andy Putman comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8297)

Andy Putman — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:58:44 -0700

@Joseph : By itself, it probably would do little harm. However, the experience of many other internet math sites (eg sci.math) indicates that left unchecked, the level and quality of posting decreases dramatically over time as good posts are swamped by bad ones. We have thus attempted to indicate (in the FAQ, for instance), a minimum quality level for posts here.

We've fought battles over things like applied mathematics questions, and I think that the "good" (read : open-minded) faction won. However, we still have to close the more egregious poorly thought out questions to fight back against entropy.

jmalkevitch comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8296)

jmalkevitch — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:39:44 -0700

@jose; I had no desire to be offensive. I am just trying to understand the "harm" that leaving vague or ill-defined questions open causes?

@andy; What harm does it do to have other people continue to answer this question even though it is vague and the author of it refused to be more specific? Can't I be of use to this person without knowing his/her "background?"

AnnanFay comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8295)

AnnanFay — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:35:38 -0700

Hmm, I was going to write a long rant about how I don't think questions should be limited to research level only. (Though I'm not exactly sure what counts as "research level")

However while writting it I found http://math.stackexchange.com

Which seems much more open minded and useful!

Bye bye! :)

Andy Putman comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8294)

Andy Putman — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:25:04 -0700

@Joseph : I'm very sorry you were offended. You should definitely not interpret this question closing as a comment on your answer! Two points:

1. Though the question was closed, it was not deleted. You answer is still there, and people can still comment on it and vote it up (in fact, I just did). All closing does is prevent other answers from being posted.

2. As it was written, it is impossible to figure out what the questioner wanted (and, just as importantly, what his/her background is). In fact, the first phrase of your answer acknowledges this. The questioner was asked to be more specific, and he/she basically refused. I'm usually pretty left-wing about what questions to close and I have argued against closing many questions in the past. This time, however, the question needed work to make it answerable and the questioner refused to do that work. It is thus a good candidate for closing.

José Figueroa comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8292)

José Figueroa — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:33:44 -0700

I beg to differ and I find the "thought police" allusion borderline offensive.

I find the analogy with the New York Times misses the point of this site. If an analogy is to be made, a closer one might be to a mathematics journal which is not subject specific, say the Bulletin of the AMS. I don't read (by far) everything in the Bulletin, but I'm sure glad that there is a editorial board which only lets in papers of a reasonable quality. The same goes for MO. I certainly do not read every question, but I do appreciate the moderators' efforts (and insofar as I am able do actively participate) in keeping the questions appropriate to the stated aims of this site.

jmalkevitch comments on "Unwelcoming tone" (8290)

jmalkevitch — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:41:42 -0700

Thought Police

Presumably Mathematics Overflow is a "community" of individuals with an interest and/or love of mathematics and its applications. It gives an opportunity to people who seek information with access to other individuals who may have thoughts or ideas that can inform their interests or help them overcome a mathematical hurdle. Some may enjoy participating just for the "fun" of the participation.

From my earliest participation in Mathematics Overflow I have been made uncomfortable with what I will refer to as its "unwelcoming" tone - the down voting and the closing of some questions. More recently it makes me feel as if there are "thought police" at work on MO and whether I want to continue to participate. Should I continue to provide answers and comments? I understand the desire not to have spam and problems like: solve this linear equation on MO. However, sometimes, I see posts that are closed because they are "homework problems" which I find rather interesting, and I would not mind seeing responses to or discussion of these questions. I have often been inspired to "new" thoughts by homework problems. My point is that one never quite knows where an important source of mathematical inspiration or pleasure will come from.

Every morning the NY Times gets delivered to my door. I could read the whole paper from cover to cover but I do not. In fact, I have absolutely no interest in sports and it is not unusual for me to throw that section out (unless there is some other stuff in that section that I care above). How do I know what to read? Well I have an interest in the daily news, science, the arts, business, etc. so I am open to reading those parts of the papers. The articles in the paper comes with headlines, which are chosen not by the reporters who write the columns but by others. It is the ability of these headlines to catch my attention or interest that gets me to read the articles. I don't doubt there are many articles I might have read with enjoyment but did not because the headline did not capture my attention. Some articles that I start to read because I was attracted by the headline I do not finish because what is in the article does not sustain my interest. Some articles I read to the end with little consequence and some I read to the end have "lasting" effects. On MO I look at lots of stuff and I have learned a lot by participating, and at the same time I hope I have helped and stimulated others.

These comments were initiated specifically by the closing of this question:

The topological properties of one-dimensional lines

I gave a good faith answer to this question (now closed) and I have no idea whether or not the proposer of the question or anyone else looked at the book Arrangements and Spreads (there are many more recent developments).

I really don't understand why this question was "closed" other than that the "thought police" are at work and the person who asked the question did not ask the question "the thought police" might have asked. If someone finds an MO "headline" not of interest they don't have to open that item. And if someone does open the item and it is not to his/her liking they can move on. Without new questions to stimulate MO where will it go?

While I value the service that the moderators of MO are performing for my benefit I just hope they will be a bit more welcoming in their reaction to what is posted and leave it up to the participants to choose items that might be of interest or value. MO needs a balance of regulars and new blood to make it worthwhile for someone like me to enjoy it rather than say spending time on MO doing something else.

Sincerely,

Joe

malkevitch@york.cuny.edu
https://york.cuny.edu/~malk

PS: I did a search on meta and note that I am not the first to use the "thought police" metaphor. However, I offer up my "two cents" anyway.