tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Mathematics education on MO) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:27:40 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (7029) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=7029#Comment_7029 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=7029#Comment_7029 Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:08:26 -0700 Qiaochu Yuan "Soft question" means "question which does not have a precise answer." We started using the tag in case people wanted to ignore them.

It is easy for bad soft questions to get lots of votes and responses because MO has a large lurking population, and the more people understand and like a question, the more people will vote for and answer that question. These are precisely the kind of people who haven't read the FAQ very closely and who therefore won't necessarily act in agreement with it. On the other hand, it's harder for legitimate technical questions to get votes because many people feel less capable of evaluating whether those questions are actually good, even though they are precisely the questions we're trying to encourage! C'est la vie.

You also really need to mention how old these questions you're looking up are. MO policy has changed a lot since last year, and we're a lot stricter about soft questions than we used to be.

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Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (7027) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=7027#Comment_7027 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=7027#Comment_7027 Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:53:56 -0700 Michael Hardy
And one of the tags said "soft question". What does "soft question" mean? ]]>
Andrea comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6928) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6928#Comment_6928 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6928#Comment_6928 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:04:07 -0700 Andrea Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6925) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6925#Comment_6925 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6925#Comment_6925 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:35:31 -0700 Qiaochu Yuan I think (but maybe I'm wrong) that it's safe to say a question like the second one would be considered off-topic today. I am a little more ambivalent about the first question. In any case, it's hardly fair to say that a few slightly less objective mathematics education questions undermines the premise that questions on MO are generally intended to have precise and identifiably correct answers. Michael, are you actually suggesting that a significant proportion of open questions (from, say, the last few months) are like these isolated examples?

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Chris Phan comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6919) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6919#Comment_6919 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6919#Comment_6919 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:34:59 -0700 Chris Phan
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/17745/how-to-teach-introductory-statistic-course-to-students-with-little-math-backgroun
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/812/teaching-statements-for-math-jobs ]]>
Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6918) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6918#Comment_6918 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6918#Comment_6918 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:12:42 -0700 Michael Hardy Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6917) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6917#Comment_6917 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6917#Comment_6917 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:10:38 -0700 Michael Hardy Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6916) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6916#Comment_6916 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6916#Comment_6916 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:05:50 -0700 Michael Hardy Steve Huntsman comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6912) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6912#Comment_6912 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6912#Comment_6912 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:44:44 -0700 Steve Huntsman Ben Webster comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6911) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6911#Comment_6911 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6911#Comment_6911 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:39:59 -0700 Ben Webster I'll just note: MO is community moderated. Most of the moderation is done by whichever of a certain reasonably large group of users happen to be on the site at the time. Thus, it's obvious that moderation policy will be inconsistent. A large number of questions that maybe in theory should be closed slip off the front page before the people who can vote to close bother to read them. Our attempt to deal with this unavoidable inconsistency is to have this site to discuss how things should go.

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Ben Webster comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6910) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6910#Comment_6910 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6910#Comment_6910 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:27:33 -0700 Ben Webster Michael- Could you link to those questions? I wasn't able to find any of them.

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Scott Morrison comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6891) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6891#Comment_6891 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6891#Comment_6891 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:39:36 -0700 Scott Morrison Hey! I didn't express a "closure policy on pedagogical", nor did I have anything to do with the closing or reopening of this question. As I said above, the question that prompted this thread is an excellent one!

I was trying to explain why it is difficult to ask good questions about mathematics education.

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Andy Putman comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6888) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6888#Comment_6888 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6888#Comment_6888 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:50:42 -0700 Andy Putman Harry Gindi comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6887) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6887#Comment_6887 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6887#Comment_6887 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:33:10 -0700 Harry Gindi @Michael Hardy:

When MO first started up, most of the rules and policies were not as strict as they are today, and a lot more bad questions fell through the cracks. Since then, the closure policy has evolved to take care of new problems as they arise (in the early days, Scott and Anton were singularly responsible for the vast majority of closures, for example). The newer policies here are often proposed by the moderators and put into effect after some debate. If you want to debate the merit of Scott's new closure policy on pedagogical questions, you should engage it on its own merits. We acknowledge that this is a change (justified by a reinterpretation of the goals and rules of MO), so arguing that the policy wasn't followed before is silly.

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VP comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6886) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6886#Comment_6886 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6886#Comment_6886 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:28:56 -0700 VP Scott and Harry: I dislike these "cop catching a speeder" analogies: as much as it pleases certain persons with high MO "reputation" to imagine themselves Gary Cooper protecting the town from rough elements, the attitude expressed by Scott Morrison in "we should actively discourage people like me, with limited teaching experience, from jumping in with answers that are merely opinions" seems a lot more realistic. If you admit that there are people more qualified to answer pedagogy questions, why do you want to mess up with the questions that you don't care about or cannot fully appreciate? To borrow your metaphor: Is that a "power trip" thing?

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Scott Morrison comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6885) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6885#Comment_6885 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6885#Comment_6885 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:11:56 -0700 Scott Morrison Michael, it sounds like instead you're saying "but everyone speeds".

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Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6884) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6884#Comment_6884 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6884#Comment_6884 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:29:56 -0700 Michael Hardy Harry Gindi comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6883) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6883#Comment_6883 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6883#Comment_6883 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:58:17 -0700 Harry Gindi If you're speeding, and you get pulled over, do you think you get off scot-free if you tell the cop that the guy in front of you was driving much faster?

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Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6882) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6882#Comment_6882 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6882#Comment_6882 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:05:10 -0700 Michael Hardy
How do you teach elementary statistics to students with very little math background?

What's the point of teaching statements submitted with job applications?

How do I budget my time spent on research?

The point of this is NOT that those are questions that were not closed and therefore questions similar to them were closed in error. Rather, they are brought up in response to your suggestion that MO questions are supposed to be questions that admit precise answers. In fact, that appears not to be the general practice on MO. ]]>
Scott Morrison comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6881) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6881#Comment_6881 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6881#Comment_6881 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:54:14 -0700 Scott Morrison @Michael,

as has been said many times on meta (I understand you're not a regular, but still): the existence of a unclosed question that is strictly worse than some particular closed question is not regarded as evidence that the closed question was closed in error.

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Michael Hardy comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6876) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6876#Comment_6876 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6876#Comment_6876 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:33:27 -0700 Michael Hardy

I know I've seen some quite blatant counterexamples to this that were not closed. I'm going to look a bit further and mention them here. ]]>
Scott Morrison comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6872) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6872#Comment_6872 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6872#Comment_6872 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:08:21 -0700 Scott Morrison I'd like to make the case that mathematics education certainly has a role on MO (it's of interest to research mathematicians!) but that asking good questions about mathematics education is genuinely difficult. This doesn't mean we should expect a lower standard for these questions, but rather that more work be put into asking them!

(For the record, I had nothing to do with closing or reopening the question that prompted this thread -- my involvement so far has been trying to explain why "subjective and argumentative" are bad qualities for a MO question. In the present, revised, form, I think it's an excellent question.)

Quoting from the FAQ

As a side-effect of being very good for to-the-point questions and answers,
the Stack Exchange software is bad for disscusions and designed to minimize
them. There's a place for discussion about mathematics, but it isn't MathOverflow. 

Hopefully by now we all agree with this --- MO questions shouldn't explicitly encourage discussion or argument. Rather, they should aim to provoke definitive answers, that can be identifiably "correct". Now, this is obviously difficult with many mathematics education questions. I think the best way to do this is to phrase questions as neutrally as possible, and to ask for answers that are not just opinion or anecdote, but can be backed up by evidence. Ideally, evidence provided by actual studies of mathematics education. (I think I heard this first from Ben Webster or Scott Carnahan: hopefully they can argue this more convincingly for us!)

Now, I appreciate that this ideal is a high one. I certainly agree that in many cases anecdotes from experienced teachers are very valuable, and we should respect and encourage these when appropriate. But I think we should actively discourage people like me, with limited teaching experience, from jumping in with answers that are merely opinions. A good mathematics education question will be asked in such a way that makes this clear!

Finally, given the extra difficulty in asking mathematics education questions that will produce impartial, evidence-based answers, I think it is particularly important that these questions are not themselves too opinionated! This can only hurt the chances of the resulting answers. I think in the case of this particular question, the initial phrasing was quite opinionated, and this may have provoked the initial closure (which, I reiterate, I had nothing to do with!).

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Scott Morrison comments on "Mathematics education on MO" (6870) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6870#Comment_6870 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/502/mathematics-education-on-mo/?Focus=6870#Comment_6870 Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:57:04 -0700 Scott Morrison This is a placeholder thread for now, to redirect further comments from http://mathoverflow.net/questions/31430/the-role-of-the-mean-value-theorem-mvt-in-first-year-calculus to meta. Please consider voting up my comment there redirecting to meta.

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