tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Notions used but not rigorously defined) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:14:07 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Todd Trimble comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13539) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13539#Comment_13539 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13539#Comment_13539 Tue, 01 Mar 2011 10:58:20 -0800 Todd Trimble redacted

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thierryzell comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13536) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13536#Comment_13536 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13536#Comment_13536 Tue, 01 Mar 2011 09:53:55 -0800 thierryzell
I believe this is the spirit of the question being discussed here. It's easier to think about the historical example than to jump directly into the notions that are currently non-rigorous. The lack of rigor is probably more obvious after the fact.

It's a legitimate question, though I'm not sure how enlightening the answers will be. ]]>
Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13535) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13535#Comment_13535 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13535#Comment_13535 Tue, 01 Mar 2011 09:27:18 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan Great! Then I have no objections to the question.

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gilkalai comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13534) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13534#Comment_13534 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13534#Comment_13534 Tue, 01 Mar 2011 07:29:56 -0800 gilkalai Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13533) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13533#Comment_13533 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13533#Comment_13533 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 14:58:04 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan

I think is worth drawing out the idea that even in contemporary mathematics there are notions which (so far) escape rigorous definition, but which nevertheless have substantial mathematical content, and allow people to make computations and draw conclusions that are otherwise out of reach.

I agree that this is a fascinating question, but I disagree that this is the question the OP is asking. (In fact, I don't know what the OP is asking! That's what I mean when I say that the OP is being imprecise.)

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Mariano comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13532) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13532#Comment_13532 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13532#Comment_13532 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 14:11:25 -0800 Mariano Emerton, but was any of the proposed definitions for F_1 somehow unclear or not precise? Correct, as it applies to definitions (as opposed to statements) can only mean, I think, satisfactory or, to be more verbose, that it captures the idea.

I think asking about definitions which are seen to be only unsatisfactory, approximative implementations of some idea is quite sensible. The fact that this occurs (and it surely occurs!) is an extremely interesting aspect of mathematical work; in particular, this is an aspect of maths that is completely missed by the popular view on the subject and on our work. But I think that the question in question should be made precise, if that is indeed what it is being asked.

A completely different question, «what are definitions that were unclear or unprecise?» in the sense of not completely defining a concept (I cannot think of any example of this right now) could also be asked... and right now I don't think it is at all clear which of the two is being asked!

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Emerton comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13530) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13530#Comment_13530 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13530#Comment_13530 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:58:38 -0800 Emerton I don't agree with the objections to this question. I think is worth drawing out the idea that even in contemporary mathematics there are notions which (so far) escape rigorous definition, but which nevertheless have substantial mathematical content, and allow people to make computations and draw conclusions that are otherwise out of reach. (Much as calculus did, well before it was put on a rigorous footing in the 1800s.)

E.g. despite Mariano's comment above, as far as I know there was no candidate definition of mixed motive prior to Voevodsky's work, and the definition of the abelian category of mixed motives (as opposed to its associated derived category) has still not been made. Nevertheless, there are many examples in the literature using the (not-yet-established) theory of mixed motives to draw significant conclusions.

In another direction, I remember when I was a student that there were many enumerative computations in algebraic geometry that could be made by computation in an appropriate quantum field theory, but which were not rigorously justified. Again, the situation has improved somewhat since then, but as far as I know there are still quantum field theoretic computations that cannot be made rigorously.

I also think that the hypothetical field F_1 is an example; despite the competing definitions that may have been offered, I don't think it is clear yet which (if any) of them is the correct.

There are other examples that I know of (e.g. the hypothetical Langlands group attached to a global field), and I'm sure there are examples that I don't know about as well.

In general, I think that it's an interesting state of affairs in mathematics when we have specific notions with strong predicative power which are not yet made rigorous, and it seems worthwhile to document some examples. If nothing else, it may implicitly offer suggestions to some readers as to where to direct their efforts.

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Todd Trimble comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13528) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13528#Comment_13528 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13528#Comment_13528 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 06:29:23 -0800 Todd Trimble One possibility for a more precise question is: what concepts in mathematics have been given multiple candidate definitions that have not been proven to be equivalent? (The candidate definitions may themselves be -- in fact in modern mathematics typically are -- impeccable, completely rigorous.) For example, there are various candidate definitions for F_1, for the notion of (weak) n-category, etc. The notion of matroid does not qualify (as far as I understand) because the different formulations have been proven equivalent.

I don't think we have to get into discussions about "what is a concept?", etc. The criterion is simply that there is a noun or phrase like F_1 that people talk about and have proposed rigorous definitions of, but there is not yet a unique definition (up to "cryptomorphism", to use a coinage of Rota).

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13527) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13527#Comment_13527 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13527#Comment_13527 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 06:17:07 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan @markvs: because my opinion is that the OP's question, as it stands, is too imprecise to be appropriate for this site. I can imagine more precise versions which are, but those aren't the versions being asked. I disagree that closing it again is silly (all this means is that I am disagreeing with five people) and agree with Yemon's objections.

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markvs comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13526) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13526#Comment_13526 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13526#Comment_13526 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 05:05:21 -0800 markvs HJRW comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13525) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13525#Comment_13525 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13525#Comment_13525 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 04:59:35 -0800 HJRW Yemon, I was (probably mis)remembering a bit of Lucky Jim. Maybe I'll dig it out in the morning. No offence intended.

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13524) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13524#Comment_13524 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13524#Comment_13524 Sun, 27 Feb 2011 04:38:20 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan The OP has been unwilling to make the question more precise. I am voting to close.

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Mariano comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13522) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13522#Comment_13522 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13522#Comment_13522 Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:15:35 -0800 Mariano I agree with Yemon here.

The answers are mainly about ideas ("$q$-analogue", say), not with actual mathematical objects. The search for the correct category of motives does not mean that each of the candidates considered was not clearly defined, and so on.

The problem is not with the answers but with the question, which does not ask anything clearly defined...

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Yemon Choi comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13521) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13521#Comment_13521 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13521#Comment_13521 Sat, 26 Feb 2011 16:27:32 -0800 Yemon Choi BTW, Henry, I am not quite sure why you think a dictionary would help over and above a lifetime of speaking the language...

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Yemon Choi comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13519) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13519#Comment_13519 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13519#Comment_13519 Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:42:34 -0800 Yemon Choi Henry, this is somehow my entire point: if a curve is a notion, is Quadratic Reciprocity a notion? Is (conjectured) Mirror Symmetry a notion? Is weak almost periodicity a notion and if so what are the things which are weakly periodic in which sense?

I am reminded of Russell's tongue-in-cheek, quasi-Socratic remarks about it not being so obvious that one plus one equals two.

The original question blurs natural language with mathematics in a way that I think could lead to poor answers. It does not give examples (such as the one Kevin alludes to above) of what (s)he is after.

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kakaz comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13516) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13516#Comment_13516 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13516#Comment_13516 Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:59:55 -0800 kakaz Kevin Ventullo comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13515) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13515#Comment_13515 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13515#Comment_13515 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:09:18 -0800 Kevin Ventullo From a historical point of view, I think this question is relevant:

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/54932/how-were-moduli-spaces-defined-before-functors

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Steve Huntsman comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13514) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13514#Comment_13514 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13514#Comment_13514 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:03:28 -0800 Steve Huntsman Ben Webster comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13513) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13513#Comment_13513 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13513#Comment_13513 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:24:35 -0800 Ben Webster Alex- I disagree. I think conformal field theory is a great example of something which is mathematically interesting, lots of people study (and do good mathematics inspired by), but which everyone knows no one can rigorously define (yet).

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Alexander Woo comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13512) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13512#Comment_13512 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13512#Comment_13512 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:17:58 -0800 Alexander Woo
We don't know.

If we knew some notion was used but not rigorously defined, we would either figure out how to define it or stop using it.

If you look at the history of mathematics, you will see that very many terms were thought to be sufficiently well defined until some mathematician(s) poked a hole in the common understanding(s) of the term.

I must also say that I don't like the suggested interpretation of the Klein quotation. It makes it look as if 19th century mathematics was some deficient variant of modern mathematics, rather than a slightly different cultural practice altogether. (cf. Wittgenstein's remarks on Frazier's _The Golden Bough_) ]]>
Zev Chonoles comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13511) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13511#Comment_13511 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13511#Comment_13511 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:15:10 -0800 Zev Chonoles After reading David's comments I've reconsidered and cast the final vote to reopen.

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HJRW comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13510) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13510#Comment_13510 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13510#Comment_13510 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:00:17 -0800 HJRW

What is a "notion"? When is it being "used"?

Yemon, at the risk of being facetious, if you honestly don't know the answer to these questions then I refer you to any English dictionary. (This is not to say that I disagree with your other objections.)

The serious point I'm trying to make is that words don't have to be defined to mathematical levels of precision if they're being used outside the technical context of mathematics.

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markvs comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13509) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13509#Comment_13509 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13509#Comment_13509 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:41:24 -0800 markvs Georges Elencwajg comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13508) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13508#Comment_13508 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13508#Comment_13508 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:30:13 -0800 Georges Elencwajg Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13507) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13507#Comment_13507 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13507#Comment_13507 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:23:25 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan It is debatable the extent to which that notion is "used." Again, I think the OP is misinterpreting the quotation he uses.

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Georges Elencwajg comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13506) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13506#Comment_13506 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13506#Comment_13506 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:20:39 -0800 Georges Elencwajg Yemon Choi comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13505) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13505#Comment_13505 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13505#Comment_13505 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:00:20 -0800 Yemon Choi Speaking more bluntly than I would normally allow myself to: my problem with the question is fourfold:

1) In my view the answer to the question is arguably "everything" - the issue is what you mean by clearly defined. Structurally? Interpreted within a particular model?

2) What is a "notion"? When is it being "used"?

3) I think that it will be easy to give many (and frequent) poor answers to the question, with a somewhat subjective component. (If something isn't "clearly defined", could it be because you just haven't read the right literature?)

4) I do not think that the level at which David interprets the question is one which the questioner will greatly appreciate (but my opinion is coloured by previous questions (s)he has raised on MO).

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Qiaochu Yuan comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13504) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13504#Comment_13504 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13504#Comment_13504 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:21:58 -0800 Qiaochu Yuan Personally I don't like the question because the OP seems to be misinterpreting the quotation. But I guess that's not a good reason to close the question.

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David Speyer comments on "Notions used but not rigorously defined" (13503) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13503#Comment_13503 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/968/notions-used-but-not-rigorously-defined/?Focus=13503#Comment_13503 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:06:51 -0800 David Speyer I have some sympathy with the question http://mathoverflow.net/questions/56677/what-notions-are-used-but-not-clearly-defined-in-modern-mathematics-closed , and I strongly disagree with the notion that every concept used in current mathematics has a rigorous definition.

A few examples: People at the n-category cafe seem to spend a lot of time discussing what the definition of an "infinity-category" should be. My understanding is that one of the reasons Lurie and Nadler-Ben Zvi's work is so exciting is that we seem to be getting close to agreeing on a definition. (Not my area, though, so I could be wrong.)

As I understand it, we don't have a rigorous definition of a "conformal field theory". (Again, not my area.)

Getting into combinatorics/combinatorial representation theory, I don't think there is a generally accepted definition of a "bijective proof" or of a "manifestly positive formula", which are things people in those fields spend a lot of time looking for.

Of course, there are also words like "trivial" and "elegant", but I think it is obvious that we don't want to define those!

I'm not sure this question will draw any great answers, but it might be interesting to see what other concepts people know of which are missing definitions.

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