tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (Indefinite sum of tan(x)) Sun, 04 Nov 2018 23:24:06 -0800 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.9 & Feed Publisher Anixx comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9780) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9780#Comment_9780 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9780#Comment_9780 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:29:06 -0700 Anixx
As you can notice there is not only picture, there is a formula. Counterexample in mathematics always was fair enough argument. On the other hand, Eroshkin's argument's claims are fairly correct until the final conclusion. He correctly noted that the function should have poles at x+1+k or x-k for any natural k. The key word here is "either". The continuous sum function can be arranged so that for any pole right of zero all consecutive poles would be in x+1+k points, so to the right of the first one and for each pole in the left of zero all poles would be in the points x-k, so to the left of it. Thus in the neighbourhood of zero itself the number of poles is limited. ]]>
Cam McLeman comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9779) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9779#Comment_9779 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9779#Comment_9779 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:27:49 -0700 Cam McLeman Noah Snyder comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9778) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9778#Comment_9778 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9778#Comment_9778 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:05:00 -0700 Noah Snyder
However, it now appears to me that indeed the simple argument was the one with the hole in it, and that the function you've plotted (and which was rigorously constructed by Gerald) certainly looks to be correct. I'm sorry for my mistake. I wish I could take the votes back, but you'll just have to settle for being right. ]]>
Cam McLeman comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9776) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9776#Comment_9776 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9776#Comment_9776 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:28:53 -0700 Cam McLeman Noah Snyder comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9773) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9773#Comment_9773 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9773#Comment_9773 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 08:55:03 -0700 Noah Snyder Anixx comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9772) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9772#Comment_9772 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9772#Comment_9772 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 08:36:26 -0700 Anixx
There is simply a counter example and the plot of the function in question. I cannot understand it seems completely illogical to me. ]]>
Noah Snyder comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9771) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9771#Comment_9771 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9771#Comment_9771 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 08:02:11 -0700 Noah Snyder
I was one of the people who voted Eroshkin up and you down, this was simply because after reading both answers and all the comments it seemed that he was right and you were wrong. If you can convince us otherwise I'll happily change my votes around the other way. ]]>
Anixx comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9770) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9770#Comment_9770 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9770#Comment_9770 Thu, 21 Oct 2010 07:48:43 -0700 Anixx Anixx comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9729) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9729#Comment_9729 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9729#Comment_9729 Wed, 20 Oct 2010 09:24:16 -0700 Anixx Harry Gindi comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9665) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9665#Comment_9665 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9665#Comment_9665 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:05:43 -0700 Harry Gindi @Willie: I like closing questions and try do so whenever I have the opportunity.

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WillieWong comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9663) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9663#Comment_9663 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9663#Comment_9663 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:52:02 -0700 WillieWong @Harry: please don't do that! Your noblest of intentions is effectively given certain "experts" more than one vote, sort of defeating the purpose of this little meritocratic republic.

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Harry Gindi comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9658) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9658#Comment_9658 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9658#Comment_9658 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:20:44 -0700 Harry Gindi To be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you (as I said in my first line, I agree with you!), just reminding everyone (and letting the newer members know) the general policy that when expert opinion is available, we should follow that person's lead.

That is, say someone posts a question about arithmetic geometry that I don't understand or can't answer, but I see that you (Pete L. Clark) have voted to close it, I will probably vote to close it as well.

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Pete L. Clark comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9653) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9653#Comment_9653 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9653#Comment_9653 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:14:41 -0700 Pete L. Clark Harry: I agree with you. (It happens!) In general, the point of MO is to ask your questions in a place where experts will see them. But we don't seem to have much expertise in this field represented on this site thus far. As long as this remains the case, the bottom line is that we are not going to get expert answers.

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Harry Gindi comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9644) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9644#Comment_9644 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9644#Comment_9644 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 03:45:15 -0700 Harry Gindi @Pete: I'm inclined to agree because I know nothing about the subject, but I would be more inclined to listen to someone from the field who has a strong opinion about it than reasoning based on my own ignorance. This agrees with the old adage (and by adage I mean meta discussion) that one should not close questions one doesn't know how to answer (although one should close questions that don't have an answer!).

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Pete L. Clark comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9642) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9642#Comment_9642 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9642#Comment_9642 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 03:26:09 -0700 Pete L. Clark Respondents have made some interesting points, and I should acknowledge that my opinions on this are tentative (i.e., you could possibly change my mind if you made a good argument: please feel free to try!). Having said that:

Certainly I agree that there are many areas of mathematics in which it is easy to generate long (even infinite) lists of questions each of which will take a lot of work to answer. Currently we're talking about closed form antiderivatives, but Ryan mentioned giving finite presentations of groups and asking if they present the trivial group. I am more familiar with the latter problem but still not an expert, so in trying to figure out what I thought I quickly switched to yet a third class of problems: Diophantine equations. Note that a common feature of the latter two problems is that they are provably undecidable in general, but it is not (yet?) clear exactly or even approximately where the boundary is between un/decidability: if I give you a presentation with a "small" number of generators and relations, or say a single Diophantine equation of "small" degree, we think there should probably be answers. But it is going to be a lot of work!

Anyway, it was easy for me to figure out what I would do if someone posted several problems asking for solutions to various systems of Diophantine equations without any motivation. (It helps that this is essentially what I actually do when such questions come my way, which they do in real life.) Namely, I look at the system of equations quickly to see if (i) I recognize it as being of a very particular form that is well studied (e.g. a K3 surface, or a curve of genus one) or (ii) if it happens to catch my fancy for any reason. If neither (i) nor (ii) hold, then -- guess what? -- I don't answer the question or even think any more about it. On the other hand I don't complain about it either: I think "I have some random Diophantine equation, what can you make of it?" is a perfectly reasonable question, just not necessarily a very interesting question to me or, necessarily, any other arithmetic geometer.

By now you can probably see my point: just because you don't want to answer a question or are not interested in it does not mean it should be closed. As people have said, asking a question is an invitation for someone else to put in time and effort on your behalf, and no one is obligated to take up that invitation. But even if an invitation is not particularly, um, inviting, so long as it is clear and not too easy I think it is at least fair to ask it on MO.

Having looked back at some of these questions, um, in question, it seems that more clarity on exactly what kind of solution is sought could be a factor in their appropriateness on MO. Not being anything like an expert on this area, I had been assuming that what the rules were for closed form solutions were more or less agreed upon by experts in the area. But, although I don't think you need to motivate your question if you don't want to, if the community finds it to be unclear then of course the burden is upon you to clarify.

Finally, a lot of times people talk about "flooding the site" with questions of a particular type. Frankly I think this has never happened on MO. (The closest is when someone goes on a late night retagging binge, but once you realize that's what's happening it's not really problematic.) The SE platform is designed to negotiate a much higher level of traffic than our site has ever actually received: c.f. StackOverflow. To the best of my knowledge there have not been any more than, say, ten questions on indefinite summation. Am I wrong about this? If not, this is not flooding. If someone posted, say, five or more "appropriate, but not inviting" questions a day and continued this for several days heedless of a complete lack of response, then we would have something to talk about. But again, this is an yet purely hypothetical situation -- isn't it?

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Andrew Stacey comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9637) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9637#Comment_9637 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9637#Comment_9637 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:59:59 -0700 Andrew Stacey The type of motivation that I like to see on MO is personal motivation. Of course, it's interesting to see why a question is interesting from an impersonal point of view, but generally a question on MO is a small part of a larger thing and the question is really only interesting when viewed from that perspective, and to give that whole view would be Too Much Information. But personal motivation can always be explained, no matter how small the question. At the very least, one should explain where the question fits in to one's research: is it a core lemma, a side-issue that came up, a "wonder why that happens", or something else?

The important thing to remember is that by asking a question on MO, you are asking someone to do your work for you. The hope and intention is that the question would have taken you a day or more to solve but to the right person, just takes five minutes. But even that five minutes is something. People only have a finite number of "five minutes" to spend on MO (or at least, they should!) and they have to decide how to spend it. So putting in motivation is like the shop window: it says, "Hey, look at my question!"; it says, "Look how grateful I'll be if you answer it!"; it says, "Look how useful that answer will be to me, and all the wonderful things I'll be able to do with it!".

Motivation should answer a very simple question:

Why are you asking this question, now?

With the emphasis on "you" and the "now". What led you personally to this question, and why is now the time that you've turned to MO to help you find an answer.

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Anixx comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9634) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9634#Comment_9634 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9634#Comment_9634 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:33:31 -0700 Anixx
Mathematics is not only applied but also a descriptive science. Nobody asks why one should research the properties of octahedron or a particular curve. There are fundamental topics of constant interest such as properties of simplest elementary functions. Function f(x)=1/x and f(x)=tan(x) are not just some random sequences, and finding discrete integral is not just finding a result of some random operation. This is especially important in the case where such integral is not generally known. ]]>
Anixx comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9629) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9629#Comment_9629 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9629#Comment_9629 Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:21:43 -0700 Anixx Will Jagy comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9615) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9615#Comment_9615 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9615#Comment_9615 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:24:32 -0700 Will Jagy Yemon Choi comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9614) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9614#Comment_9614 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9614#Comment_9614 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:58:04 -0700 Yemon Choi See also: math(s) is more than asking random questions, or finding Yet Another Formula...

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Yemon Choi comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9613) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9613#Comment_9613 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9613#Comment_9613 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:56:10 -0700 Yemon Choi That question rubs me up the wrong way - not so much the mathematics but the apparent motivation, and the way it's phrased. However, I find it difficult to rationalize my annoyance, which is why I haven't left any comment.

I am not sure I share Pete's feeling that "perfectly random, purely technical question in some branch of mathematics" are to be encouraged, in the sense that although I've asked at least two questions which turned out in hindsight to be daft, I tried to give some indication that I had thought about the questions and why I thought that people might be able to give answers. I find myself inclined to side with Ryan on this one.

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Ryan Budney comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9612) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9612#Comment_9612 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9612#Comment_9612 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:26:26 -0700 Ryan Budney
Similarly, anti-derivative questions such as these should come with background: known algorithms and why they fail, known obstructions and why they don't apply nor readily generalize, or external motivation: the sum comes up in an applied problem and a closed form would help analyze some asymptotic thing they're trying to get after, etc. Some indication that the author has attempted something before coming to MO. ]]>
Ryan Budney comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9611) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9611#Comment_9611 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9611#Comment_9611 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:07:02 -0700 Ryan Budney
For example, I don't see any real difference between this type of question and randomly generating finite presentations, and asking the MO forum whether or not the presentation is of the trivial group. If the presentation isn't interesting for any extrinsic reasons, I'd say the question is on the inappropriate side of borderline. ]]>
Pete L. Clark comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9610) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9610#Comment_9610 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9610#Comment_9610 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:52:56 -0700 Pete L. Clark @Ryan: I have hardly any interest in and even less skill at these discrete antiderivative problems. However, a former PhD student of a colleague of mine at UGA got a job at Wolfram Industries and came back to give a talk about what he (and others) are working on to improve Mathematica for the future. A big part of it was these closed form antiderivatives (discrete and otherwise). So I gather this topic is part of current research mathematics.

In general, I think that questions do not have to be motivated per se to be appropriate for MO. (I believe this sort of thing was discussed on meta before and this position was "agreed on", in the sense that everyone agreed except those who wrote in to disagree.) They just need to be of interest to some research mathematicians. Of course giving motivation is a good way of exhibiting and creating such interest (and perhaps one wants questions to be "good" and not just "appropriate"; for that motivation seems much more key). But I feel that I (for instance) should be able to ask a perfectly random, purely technical question in some branch of mathematics as long as it's not too easy, i.e., so that it takes a fairly expert person to answer it.

So if people are asking unmotivated indefinite integration questions that everybody knows how to routinely answer (in particular this should probably mean that the state of the art software packages like Mathematica can correctly answer it), then that's probably not appropriate for MO. Otherwise, I would say that it probably is.

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Ryan Budney comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9609) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9609#Comment_9609 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9609#Comment_9609 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:32:42 -0700 Ryan Budney
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/42550/find-a-closed-form-for-sum-k1x-1-a1-k

There appears to be a proliferation of "find a restricted type of closed form for this (discrete) anti-derivative" type problems recently. By and large I think without any motivation, the math.stackexchange site would be more appropriate for these types of problems. But perhaps others see these types of problems as being motivated? Am I missing something? ]]>
jbl comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9608) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9608#Comment_9608 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9608#Comment_9608 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:11:54 -0700 jbl It's not clear to me that it is solved; see Mariano's comment there. It seems reasonably likely to me that this is what you get out if you throw the question into Mathematica, and also reasonably likely that the expression in question is not really well-defined. (Of course, by it follows from the accepted answer that the expression can't be well-behaved, and in my opinion this is a more useful thing to know than what Anixx has written.) I also don't understand your last sentence -- bumped up by who or what, when?

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Will Jagy comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9607) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9607#Comment_9607 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9607#Comment_9607 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:56:33 -0700 Will Jagy http://mathoverflow.net/questions/42534/find-a-sum-sum-a1-x ]]> Mariano comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9606) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9606#Comment_9606 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9606#Comment_9606 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:36:07 -0700 Mariano You should write a comment to the original question, to the questioner gets notified: he way or may not change the accepted answer in response.

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decomwe comments on "Indefinite sum of tan(x)" (9605) http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9605#Comment_9605 http://mathoverflow.tqft.net/discussion/711/indefinite-sum-of-tanx/?Focus=9605#Comment_9605 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:13:27 -0700 decomwe has been given by Anixx, but in terms of votes it is still behind the currently accepted answer. It would be good if solved questions could be bumped up so solutions could be seen and upvoted. ]]>