tea.mathoverflow.net - Discussion Feed (What if tenure dies?)

VP comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7481)

VP — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 02:07:59 -0700

Ok, Harry, just this one time you may, but you must be an A scout for at least 24 hours afterward.

I should note, though, that some of the commentators display skills worthy of Swift in their responses to philosophy professors with their wonderful ideas how to rationalize the world and maximize the profit.

Harry Gindi comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7480)

Harry Gindi — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 01:36:55 -0700

@VP:

Hearkening back to our earlier discussion, can I at least display contempt for the general public for taking these people seriously?

Pretty please?

;)

VP comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7479)

VP — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:51:38 -0700

If anything, I think that we (mathematics professionals, not MO users) should seriously discuss how to counteract the crud that flows up from the so-called "think tanks". "Articles" like the "Room for debate" bloviations quoted by Igor seem to make more and more frequent appearances even in mainstream press, such as the NY Times, and yet I don't think the tenure system has gotten worse in the past year.

Igor Pak comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7473)

Igor Pak — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:49:39 -0700

Hi Steve,
To answer your question, I was thinking of "How should we revamp the current tenure system?" It seems obvious to me that current tenure system will die in our lifetime, so I say it's never too soon to start thinking of how to fix it before too late (someone does it for us with long-term drastic results). I have thought about this question for awhile and have my own answer I wanted to contribute. I followed Qiaochu's suggestion and made a short post on Jordan's blog http://tinyurl.com/2upjy8t - perhaps others are right and this is just too subjective and contentious issue to fit MO... -- IP

GS comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7471)

GS — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:09:04 -0700

Eh, I guess I should mention: the question is not "What if tenure dies?", right??? As employed in the NYTimes op-ed it is purely rhetorical (not really a question).

I have to admit I don't think asking *that* question will produce very interesting answers.

Hailong Dao comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7470)

Hailong Dao — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:58:52 -0700

I agree with Qiaochu: to discuss whether tenure should be maintained is going to be very contentious.

Perhaps a question like: "practical advices on how to prepare yourself if the tenure system dies" can be potentially helpful, depending on how close we are to the doomsday.

GS comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7469)

GS — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:55:24 -0700

Hi Igor,

I'm not sure what the question is yet (after reading the articles). Would you ask something like

"What would a viable alternative to the tenure system look like?"

or perhaps more specifically something like "How much (as a function of N) would we have to pay academic mathematicians if we want to attract equal talent without tenure, but with N years renewable contracts?"

I realize that I'm likely in the minority (probably nearly all the really active people on MO/meta will disagree with me?) but I'd like to hear answers to some question along these lines. Perhaps once you actually write down a question and propose it here on meta some of the resistance will soften? I think that trying to phrase a precise, answerable question about this would be an interesting exercise in itself, and it seems to me that there are lots of candidates.

Cheers,
Steve

Qiaochu Yuan comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7468)

Qiaochu Yuan — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:41:56 -0700

Discuss it here instead: http://quomodocumque.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/i-am-cranky-about-people-who-are-cranky-about-the-tenure-system/

The career advice question is borderline, but I think there it was possible for more experienced mathematicians to give reasonably objective advice. This, on the other hand, seems like a fairly contentious issue.

Mariano comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7467)

Mariano — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:34:54 -0700

A key problem is that the software underlying MO is a very bad fit for a discussion.

Igor Pak comments on "What if tenure dies?" (7466)

Igor Pak — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:21:14 -0700

I am not sure anymore what is and what is not acceptable at MO, in view of questions like this:
http://mathoverflow.net/questions/32566/careers-advice-for-ph-d-s-without-current-postdocs-or-university-jobs
(to which I myself, perhaps unproductively, contributed). It seems, MO became more of a "math research central" where academic questions can be discusses. Given the importance of the issue, perhaps we can discuss our own answers to this question:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/7/19/what-if-college-tenure-dies/why-tenure-is-unsustainable-and-indefensible
which was later continued elsewhere, like here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/07/tenure-an-idea-whose-time-has-gone/60187/
I realize that this is more of a "blog discussion" type issue, but the universal applicability and popularity of MO may (or may not?) make it a better quality discussion. Let me know what you think. -- IP