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    • CommentAuthorAngelo
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011
     
    To Storkle: maybe I will, my policy is not set in stone. But I have seen, and thought about, questions from anonymous users that I would have answered, had they not been anonymous.
  1.  

    Since people are commenting on the dichotomy between "Bill Johnson" and "Bugs Bunny", let me add my opinion on the matter.

    When Bill Johnson first appeared on MO, I didn't know him from Bugs Bunny. But because he uses his real name, I have with almost no effort learned a fair bit about him. People like Yemon Choi gave him a warm welcome and dropped hints on the meta site that he was a leading mathematician in the field of functional analysis. This has been confirmed by his answers on MO up to the best of my own knowledge: i.e., I know so little functional analysis as to be unable to tell the difference between a leading functional analyst and a decent functional analyst, but Professor Johnson is certainly decent enough for me. Moreover I began to notice and remember that certain theorems in functional analysis bear his name. Just now I went to MathSciNet and immediately found a William B. Johnson who has 118 papers in functional analysis and related areas, which have been cited 992 times. So it's pretty clear who and what he is. If I had a specific question about something that appeared in one of his papers (again, I am not at present up to that task, but I have been in the mathematics business long enough not to rule out the possibility that this could happen in the future) I could ask it here thinking that he would probably respond. Or perhaps I would feel bold enough to email him personally about the question, since he probably has at least some vague awareness of who I am as well. If some day our paths cross at some conference or other event, we will probably stop and talk to each other because of our MO connection. (Such has been the case, at least, with dozens of other mathematicians over the last 16 months.)

    Now try out any of these things with Bugs Bunny...it doesn't work. Maybe he is someone that I already know, and maybe he isn't. (Maybe he's a she...) He certainly seems to be a knowledgeable and interesting person to the extent that I would benefit and enjoy out-of-MO interactions with him. So it seems a bit of a shame that I don't know his actual identity: without that he exists only as an MO character, whereas Bill Johnson and I exist also -- and let me go so far as to say primarily -- in REAL LIFE. I don't remember exactly what Mr. Bunny's justification for his anonymity is, but if I am being honest it strikes me as an eccentric and mildly antisocial choice. (It is, of course, his choice: I am not disputing that.) I wonder what he is gaining to give up all the pleasant human interaction that could come from identifying himself as a real person.

  2.  

    +1 Pete. I should mention that Bugs Bunny's reasons for anonymity are based on security and privacy and are, in my opinion, totally reasonable:

    If MO required real names, I would not join it. Call it self-preservation instinct: web has become an extremely dangerous place to be. After a certain incident I have decided for myself to use creative identities everywhere on the web, except my bank and my paypal account...

    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011
     

    Picking banks and paypal to bestow one's online trust on is somewhat funny :)

  3.  

    @Mariano: why? Paypal uses https and I assume that Bugs Bunny's bank does as well. That alone makes them both more secure than most of the rest of the internet.

    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011 edited
     

    @Qiaochu: One also doesn't put one's money in the care of Math Overflow (one is, I assume welcome to do so.. but MO does not guarantee that one's deposit will not be spent on a magnificent party and/or a spaceship).

    • CommentAuthoran_mo_user
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011
     
    Andrew Stacey, you were comparing your perception of two long time users, one of them a well-known mathematician and for the other one 'no-one knows'. Right, I can understand this can make a difference, and I even further agree that even if the person is not well-known but has some mathematical profile (for lack of a beeter word) that one can figure out, say, from his/her website or MathSciNet this can make a difference.
    But, for example, let's consider an undergradute student that newly arrives to the site.
    His/her name in all likelihood won't tell you anything whatsoever, and also might not help you to find any information (assuming the person has no/little online presence). How in such a case it still makes any difference for you whether it says Smith, Chen, Sanchez, Mueller,..., or something that is not a real name is really difficult to understand for me.

    Yemon Choi, I really share your dislike for badly phrased one-line questions, but does it really make a difference whether it was asked by unknown(yahoo), Donald Duck, or John Smith (in particular, if there is no additional information beyond the name available)?

    My main point is that I really don't understand the focus on the name, and apparently nobody is asking for more.
    What if 2 mathematicians have the same name, is then more information 'compulsory' to pass the non-annonymous test; what if there are 10,...
  4.  
    >>
    But, for example, let's consider an undergradute student that newly arrives to the site.
    His/her name in all likelihood won't tell you anything whatsoever, and also might not help you to find any information (assuming the person has no/little online presence). How in such a case it still makes any difference for you whether it says Smith, Chen, Sanchez, Mueller,..., or something that is not a real name is really difficult to understand for me.
    >>
    I disagree. Knowing a poster is an undergraduate student gives information on how to formulate an answer. If a new poster gives a name and I click on the thread, I immediately click on the name to see if the poster gives information about himself or herself and sometimes also Google the name.
    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011
     

    Additionally to Bill's reason to disagree with an_mo_user: for me it is psychologically more pleasing to interact with definite persons whom I can individualize. You simply cannot do that with unknown(google).

  5.  

    an_mo_user: Please understand that I am not trying to construct a logical, reasoned argument. I am trying to explain what it is like for me - that's the only reliable data that I can bring to this discussion. In particular, I don't know why I am the way that I am! All I can say, is that a name helps. As I've said, I have no knowledge of Bill outside MO, yet my knowledge of him is far greater than for, say, Bugs Bunny. The fact that I can link the various small bits of information that I have about Bill but can't about Bugs is something that I attribute to the names.

    I could have picked graduates, I might have had more trouble picking undergraduates simply because I don't know many just from MO. I don't think that it has anything to do with status, just that the higher status users are more noticeable. I have certainly noticed both Bill and Bugs, but one stuck and the other ... eats carrots.

    I'm also not trying to say that my behaviour is ideal; just that if I'm typical then that information should be taken into account when someone chooses to be anonymous or pseudonymous.

    Incidentally, this does suggest a strategy for someone wanting to be anonymous: choose something that could actually be a real name. Just don't choose Abel (and don't choose a gravatar of a famous mathematician).

    Actually, talking of gravatars, the same goes for people that don't put pictures of themselves but choose something silly ... like the cheshire cat! Again, it's information that helps me build up a picture of who they are. I feel that I would know David Speyer at a conference, but I could be talking to Pete Clark for half an hour before realising who he was. (Actually, it would probably take about 2 minutes before he reminded me that I've offered to buy him quite a large number of pints by now.)

    But I don't want to up the ante. I'll keep the discussion on names for now.

  6.  

    Truth be told, Andrew, I don't find your perspective that hard to understand; in part I was trying to draw you out a bit.

    • CommentAuthoran_mo_user
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011
     
    Bill Johnson, perhaps I did not describe carefully enough the scenario I mean. I believe there is no disagreement regarding this point; certainly I agree it is helpful to know somebody is an undergraduate. Let me make my example a bit more explicit and extreme (originally I meant both leave About Me blank).

    Pseudonym-User:
    Name: Donald Duck; and in the About Me box it says, eg: 3rd year undergrad at a mid-level US institution, presently mainly interested in Real and Complex Analysis.

    Realname-User:
    Name: John Smith. No further information. [And assume this is also an undergraduate without webpage or other significant online presence, so no real hope of finding this John Smith with Google.]

    I think, leaving psycologiacal issues aside, the first, while in violation of the realnames-policy, provides more useful information when it comes to answering his questions.

    Andrew Stacey (and also Mariano), thank you for taking the time to repeteadly explain me what you mean. I believe I finally understood it. Sorry it took so long for me to understand, but regarding this we apparently think/feel very very differently.
  7.  
    "I feel that I would know David Speyer at a conference, but I could be talking to Pete Clark for half an hour before realising who he was." Andrew, don't they use nametags at the conferences you go to?
  8.  

    I can't speak for Andrew, but at the conferences I go to nametags are provided but frequently not worn.

    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2011
     

    Now that is something we can make a rule of! Let us decree that people MUST use nametags at conferences.

    By the power invested upon us.

  9.  

    I do not religiously wear nametags, but my social skills are so high that if I meet you for the first time, there is a very good chance that one of the first things I'll say is, "Hi, I'm Pete Clark. I don't think we've met: you are...?"

    Now I know that you cannot count on just any mathematician to do this, but what can I say? I'm a pretty exceptional guy.

  10.  

    To an_mo_user: in your specific scenario then I agree that the pseudonymous user is providing more information than the named one. However, it is, for me, useless information! I never click through to someone's profile to see if they have more information there that might help me frame an answer (I sometimes do to see whether or not I should take their answer seriously). So as far as I'm concerned, the named user still ranks slightly higher than the pseudonymous user.

    But the situation I'm describing is about interacting with a person through more than one question/answer to build up a picture of them. There, the information in the profile becomes less and less important (even assuming that I read it). There are professors who rank quite low in my (admittedly skewed) ranking, and graduates, even undergraduates, who rank quite highly. My ranking is used purely as additional information to decide how much time to invest in reading something that they have posted.

    It's like that game where someone hides money in two boxes, but different amounts depending on whether they think you'll take both boxes or just one. If playing the game once, the strategy is to take both boxes. If playing the game many times, the strategy is to take just one. If you intend to view MO as a place to go, get what you want, and run, then fine but don't expect me to bother too much about you. If you intend to view MO as a place to stay and join in, then that's great, but it would help me to have a memorable label to connect your different contributions so that I better know who you are and can better help you.

    (PS: I find that nametags ruin many a garment and don't wear them unless sticky tape is provided. Though if someone sent me an MO t-shirt for free, I'd wear that solely at conferences and stick all my nametags to it.)

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2011 edited
     

    As an aside: I do religiously wear name tags. So if you see a waterfowl not wearing name-tags at a conference, that's probably not me.

    @Andrew: a propos garments, are you talking about sticky name-tags? Plastic sleeves with a clip on the back works wonders with a shirt with breast-pockets.

  11.  

    Ah, you obviously go to a higher class of conference than me. I usually get the safety-pin type name badges.

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2011
     

    @Andrew: I find it curious that you consider a conference in which the organizers decided that participants shouldn't be trusted with safety pins is "higher class" :)

    • CommentAuthoran_mo_user
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2011
     
    Andrew Stacey, yes I can understand all that. Still, as far as I understand, MO is mainly a Question and Answer site, not a networkinng, community building, alike site. And, while it is certainly fine if there is a somewhat closely linked community of core users I would also like to point out the risk that if the core community is too strongly linked it can get more and more difficult over time for new users to actually join (in particular if they don't know, or are known too, anybody in the core-group). At the moment, I do not feel this is yet a problem, however I feel there are some tendencies in this direction and this could get worse over time.

    Since you (implictly) asked: I see MO as a site which I visit frequently (since some time essentially daily) as there are interesting things to read and I like the general idea, and if I see a question that I can answer (with a reasonable amount of effort), then I do so. Happened around 10 times so far; mainly 'true' answers, so almost all non-soft and mostly not the n+1 answer. Occassionally I leave a comment here and there if I think it could be helpful or I am curious to get clarification on something. So far I did not ask a question.
    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2011
     

    While we are on the subject, I think we as an Organization should also promote name tags with the names on the two sides, specially when it is one of those worn around the neck.

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2011
     

    @Mariano: or... behold! The Moebius name tag! (Incidentally, there must be an explanation as to why with one of those worn around the neck, the tendency is for the tag to turn so it faces my stomach.)

    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2011
     

    Wow. There is patent material there, Willie!

  12.  

    In the spirit of "Whose Line is it Anyway" (the British one, of course), I award everyone in this thread a +1 for an informative and entertaining read.

    • CommentAuthorStorkle
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011 edited
     

    Dear Angelo,

    By random chance, I happened to notice that you answered the question

    http://mathoverflow.net/questions/83949/the-composition-of-derived-functors-commutation-fails-hazardly

    from a user "sasha" who seems to me to be, for all intents and purposes, anonymous. I'm wondering what it is about this case that prompted your reply. Of course, being an anonymous questioner myself, perhaps I have no reasonable expectation of a reply here!

    Best, Storkle

    Edit: There is also your relatively recent answer to the user "36min", but I have to admit that I don't see a pattern so I'm still curious.

    • CommentAuthorAngelo
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
     
    To Storkle: I have very strict rules, but often I forget them.
    • CommentAuthorhorus
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2012
     
    Sorry to revive a long dormant thread, but I read through the history with interest and it seemed to me the most important reason for anonymity was neglected: avoidance of persecution.

    It is not likely someone would be persecuted for contributing to mathoverflow specifically, but if I live in a country with an oppressive government and use the same computer for activities that are considered subversive, having any activity on this computer tied to my name could put me in jeopardy. Even those of you living in "liberal western democracies" could have reasons to fear your own internal securities agencies if you were to use the same computer for participating in islamic forums, or researching certain types of physics or chemistry that could be used in explosives. Or more innocuously, if you used the same computer to surf pornography, you might not want your real name tied to that activity.

    Even if you do not use the same computer for anything that might be considered subversive by anyone, if it is a public or semi-public computer used by other people, *their* activity could put you at risk. Say I log on to mathoverflow from this public computer, and someone who is involved in such activities also uses this computer for their activities at other times. The government determines this undesirable activity is coming from this particular internet cafe or whatever, seizes the machine, and tries to figure out who was using it. My name comes up as having visited a mathematics site immediately before or after someone visited a forum and participated in some illicit discussion. My government's police may well decide I am worthy of investigation or interrogation or worse.

    There are very good reasons for the protection of people's anonymity. It is an important issue that should not be trivialized. You'll recall many Chinese dissidents are still in prison today because Yahoo! revealed their identities to the Chinese government. This was not an isolated incident, and even in "free" countries, security agencies are certainly working around the clock to tie user activity on some sites to people's real names. I am not sure that I trust them to do so in an error-free way (even though I am not involved in anything remotely illicit.)
  13.  

    @horus, that's a fair point, but in response, MO isn't here to promote subversive activities around the world. So I don't think we should be particularly sensitive to that kind of issue. If you're subversive in your home country, it's up to you to do it effectively and you shouldn't be asking a global mathematics community to enable you.

    • CommentAuthorYemon Choi
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2012
     

    Ryan, while I sympathise with your broad point, I feel the wording of your response comes over - I'm sure unintendedly - as dismissive towards the points raised in horus's 3rd and 4th paragraphs. The whole point is that in certain places, it is remarkably easy to be found engaging in what the Powers That Be deem to be subversive activity. It is perfectly justifiable to worry about being flagged for "subversive activity" even if one is not intending to be "subversive in one's home country".

    "If you've done nothing wrong, you have little to worry about" is a dangerous line, which I hope we're not espousing.

    That said: I personally I think MO should discourage anonymity, on the grounds that it isn't the place to fix the many and varied non-mathematical iniquities of the world.

  14.  

    @Yemon, sure but I suppose the 3rd and 4th paragraphs are a concern about a non-manifest problem. Anonymity is allowed on MO, it's just not generally encouraged. I think it's quite clear from the thread that not only would it be functionally-impossible for us to demand real names, the desire for a uniform real-names-only policy just isn't present in the community.

    That said, I think if you ask a mathematically-sophisticated question on MO, the likelyhood of the authorities determining your identity (if they were to try) is extremely high, regardless of the lengths you go to protect your identity. Mathematical literacy is very low across the entire planet, so expressing literacy in a public forum makes it extremely likely that you will be identified in a short amount of time. Expressing a particular type of mathematical proclivity (unless it's intentional mis-direction) is practically a red flag "my name is X, my address is Y, I went to university Z".

  15.  
    Regarding the personal-safety problem mentioned by Horus: Fear becomes internalized.

    I will explain using a personal anecdote. In city X, there had been a number of physical attacks against Jews. Person A was a religious Jew, who sat next to me in synagogue every morning. But when I saw him in the university, he pretended not to know who I was. When I would come into his office, he would pull down the blinds. Why? Because I wear a kippa in public, and he was afraid he would be identified as Jewish. There was no objective danger inside the university or inside his office, and it was triviality itself to figure out that he was Jewish- yet the fear had become internalized, and was no longer correlated with a rational risk-assessment process.

    This is how I interpret Horus's comment. It seems a fair point. But I don't think it should have any influence on MO policy- basically I agree with Ryan and with Yemon.
    • CommentAuthorhorus
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2012
     
    @Ryan There are some countries in which being a woman and studying mathematics would be subversive. Or being a member of a particular religion would make one subject to persecution. I believe MO should be enabling these people to participate.

    Of course, this whole thread is hypothetical since MO has no plan to implement an identity check on all of its users; however, some people were suggesting there were no good reasons for people to remain anonymous. Some people have good reasons. Also, it is hypothetical today, but it seems plausible MO could implement a referral feature or some other method to restrict access (especially on days that it is overwhelmed by spam posts).

    @Yemon and Daniel. I was not suggesting MO should be solving the problems of the world, only that it should be welcoming of anonymous users. The cost of welcoming anonymous users is... you get some annoying users (who may or may not have been annoying if they were using their real name), and you don't know who you are talking to some of the time. This seems like a very small cost compared to providing an avenue to engage in maths for people who might not be able to do so otherwise (or might be putting themselves or their family at real risk if they are not careful with their identity). It isn't likely that people of this background are going to provide great mathematical breakthroughs from their involvement on MO. However, if MO gives talented mathematicians an opportunity to participate in mathematical discourse that would otherwise be inaccessible to them, then it has had a positive impact. A single mathematics website is not going to address the problems of the world, but it can save some individuals from isolation and give them a voice in the mathematical conversations here. Providing this opportunity to even a handful is a great good.
  16.  

    Interesting stuff!

    I'm still pretty steadfast in my plan to encourage people to use their real names, but I think we're doing this in a fashion that is completely compatible with allowing access for people who are worried about their online identity.

    We've never restricted access to good-faith anonymous users. I really do need to say "good-faith"; when an anonymous user misbehaves we usually have very little patience. But for this, anonymous also means not providing an email address visible only to the moderators. When an email address is available, we nearly always try to write an email explaining our concerns, if it's not obvious trolling.

    If you're really worried about participating in online mathematics because of your repressive local government, drop me a line. (PGP public key on my website, along with other contact details.) I might well be happy to set up a very respectable looking tunnel for you, if I'm convinced you're kosher.

  17.  

    horus is stating true things (yes, there are political dangers to open scientific activity across different societies, and even where there are no political ones, there can still be financial and social ones). But I think the current policy on MathOverflow - anonymous posting is being socially discouraged but not persecuted or penalized - is not detrimental to the kind of speech horus is trying to protect. Those who know they need to get the word out will hardly be deterred by a generic mistrust towards anonymous posters, as long as the actual quality of the posting is a much stronger factor in its evaluation by others than the anonymity of its author.

    This thread did contain some proposals to disallow pseudonyms, but they are pretty much out of the discussion now. Correct me if I am wrong (I hope not).

  18.  

    @Daniel, allow me to quote Futurama on that:

    Bender: Please, I'm scared.
    Sal: We're all scared, it's the human condition. Why do you thinks I put on this tough-guy façade?