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    • CommentAuthorGS
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2010
     
    I almost put this in the "feature requests" category but it seems to me slightly more relevant in etiquette. Also, being a relatively new user I'm hesitant to make this suggestion because I haven't been around long enough to know if it's really reasonable. On the other hand, I have very high hopes for mathoverflow as a repository for knowledge and triumph of communal wisdom, and I think that some of the negativity inevitably floating around a site with this format poses special problems for mathematics.

    The suggestion is: eliminate downvoting, and allow up to 2 upvotes per person per post.

    The main benefits I see, in order of decreasing importance:

    (1) It makes the site more welcoming and friendly, which is absolutely essential.
    (2) It makes it easier to distinguish good answers from great ones without downvoting good answers.

    I'm not entirely sure what the objections (those not of a technical nature) will be, so I won't try to anticipate any.
  1.  

    I'm agnostic about whether questions should be downvoted or not, but I think it's very important that the ability to downvote answers should be retained. Sometimes answers are just wrong or otherwise unhelpful and that should be reflected when answers are ranked by votes; this is important information for people wanting to know the answer to the question but who don't have the expertise to judge whether an answer is correct or not. People should learn not to take votes on answers personally.

    Besides, enough people are active that great answers already attract a lot more votes than good answers.

  2.  

    I see where you are coming from Stephen, but at the moment I agree with Qiaochu about downvoting answers. I try myself to remember to see if answers or questions that I downvote are edited and mede better, and then undo my downvote or even upvote. I think people should try to do this, and also leave a comment about why they downvote. One thing that is possibly a topic for another thread is the fact you can't change your vote if the question hasn't been edited for a while. I saw a question the other day, I can't remember which, that I had downvoted at some point. It had been edited and made fine, but I hadn't noticed it at the time. When I saw it, it was maybe 10 days after last edit, and I couldn't change my vote.

  3.  
    Your issue (2) is addressed via the selectable "favourite" star. Regarding (1), IMO whether or not this place is friendly is a choice the participants make every time they use the site. Negative votes do have a role -- in amplitude they're smaller than a complaint to a moderator but greater than ambivalence.

    Like Amazeen I'd like to have the ability to remove a downvote after a post has been modified. The timeframe is a little too constrained right now.
  4.  
    @Ryan: If absolutely necessary you can (with sufficient rep) edit the post yourself and then remove your vote. I had to do this to remove a "strategic" downvote I made to one of David Speyer's answers.

    I haven't tried it, but I think just changing a tag (and then changing it back!) would count as sufficient editing in order to be able to change your vote, so is a move available to most serious MOers. Of course it is a ridiculous hack which has the annoying side effect of bumping the question up to the top of the active list.
  5.  
    It'd be nice to have a non-hacky way to address this issue. But thanks for describing the hack. :)
  6.  
    Qiaochu, you said, "People should learn not to take votes on answers personally." Whether you like it or not, people are going to take votes personally. I am all for constructive criticism; e.g., if somebody posts a bad question or an unhelpful response, then others should explain why it is so. A downvote, on the other hand, is negative, unconstructive feedback. Rather than putting the burden on the recipient of a downvote to not take it personally, I think the system should be changed to encourage only positive or constructive feedback.
  7.  

    The system is mildly geared to encourage positive feedback. It costs rep to downvote something. Admittedly, only 1 point, so one can argue that it should be more.

  8.  
    I think downvoting is not convincing because you have absolutely no guarantee that the downvoter is more competent than the poster, nor even that he has a clue of what's going on. Also he might act out of spite, bad mood, etc.
    More importantly: if the question has been upvoted before, the downvote is drowned in the positive votes and effectively disappears.
    A few days ago, I drew the attention of an answer's author to some infelicities in his post, while commenting that his answer was interesting overall. He immediately took my remark into account and edited his answer . I think that was a very laudable reaction on his part and we are all the better for it. There are of course many examples like this and I think this kind of behaviour should be encouraged.

    PS Given Qiaochu's astronomic (and deserved ) reputation, his advice not to take downvotes personally makes me think of a billionaire's advice not to worry if you are poor :)
    • CommentAuthorGS
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2010
     
    @Qiaochu: My feeling is summed up by what Tom LaGatta said. I agree that people *should* learn not to take downvotes personally, but (most) people inevitably *will* take downvotes personally. It seems more practical to change MO than to teach people not to take downvotes personally. Google succeeds so spectacularly because everyone participates. The degree to which MO succeeds will depend on the degree to which the mathematical community participates---the format should maximize participation. It would be troubling, for instance, if 2 years from now the proportion of female contributors to MO is as low (compared to the proportion of female mathematicians) as my unscientific survey indicates it is today.

    @Qiaochu, Gretar: In the same practical vein, I think it's generally agreed by the people who study these things that effort spent encouraging good behavior is proportionately more effective than effort spent discouraging bad behavior. It would seem to follow that allowing up to 2 upvotes and 0 downvotes would be *even more effective* for separating good and great answers from mediocre and bad answers than the current system. I'm not going to address the issue of removing downvotes, though I'm glad you pointed out to me that it's not always so easy to do!

    @Ryan: (2) is not, in fact, addressed by favorites, which only apply to questions (as far as I am aware), and have no effect on reputation. As for your reply to (1), I think my reply to Qiaochu is still relevant.
  9.  

    @Georges: I guess I asked for that!

    I agree that downvotes, if they are ever cast, should be accompanied by an explanation and constructive criticism. If this is too difficult an etiquette to enforce then maybe one solution is to remove downvotes. However, I am not convinced that allowing 2 upvotes per user per question is a good idea: like Georges says, "you have absolutely no guarantee that the [up]voter is more competent than the poster," etc. Consider the following scenario: Terence Tao posts some thoughtful but incomplete partial answer to a question in a field in which he is not an expert. A mathematician more of an expert in the field of the question judges his comment as interesting, though incomplete, so votes it up 1. A less experienced mathematician, seeing a long post by Terence Tao, decides that it must contain deep insights and so votes it up 2. (Not that Terence Tao's posts don't contain deep insights! But I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here.)

  10.  

    Re: eliminate downvoting.

    Does anyone have the data on downvoting? How big is really the problem with people getting upset because of it? If there is a problem, is the best solution technical (prohibit downvoting) or societal (come to the equilibrium where posts by novice users get edited and improved rather then downvoted)?

    Re: two upvotes

    There already exists the instrument you call "second upvote": it's called a positive comment ("Hey, that's cool, let's upvote it for clarity and good introduction")

  11.  
    Dear Qiaochu,
    glad to see you took the joke so graciously.
    The part where I said you deserved your reputation is my earnest feeling.
  12.  

    Incidentally, there are a few people in this discussion who I haven't seen before here on meta so they may not be aware of a few things. If this is already known to you all then please forgive me saying it again!

    Although MO is run by Anton and his gang, the software underlying it is not under their control. They can do a certain amount (how much is something I'm not sure of) such as installing jsMath, but the core structure is beyond their reach. I think that mucking around with the voting system is one of those things that is beyond their reach.

    In that case, as well as discussing it here, it's important to add it as a feature request on the site that the people who write the software use. It's called meta.SE and one of the three discussions that are stuck to the top of the list in this forum has more information about it. In particular, someone who feels strongly about this issue should write a feature request over on meta.SE. Then everyone else who wants it should go and vote for it.

    Back on topic, I'd go for the societal solution rather than the technical. I rarely vote something down myself, but I do find it useful as a way of gauging what to look at. Since the default is always to do nothing, the mode here is probably 0 votes. If that's also the mean, then that's a useful statistic. If that's the minimum, then I can't separate "Not worth looking at" from "Nobody's yet understood the question well enough to work out whether it's sensible or not".

    If looking for a technical tweak, I would go for the "force commenting if voting down". I do try to comment when I either vote down or vote to close.

    It's always tempting to try to constrain bad behaviour by Big Means, but if someone's determined to be nasty then they will be. Perhaps if it were clearer that having questions closed or voted down happens to the best of us, then others wouldn't take it so personally.

    (Of course, if it does get personal and someone is systematically voting down other people's posts then that's an abuse of the system and I think that Anton has the Power To Deal With That.)

    • CommentAuthorGS
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2010
     
    @Andrew: Thanks for pointing out that this type of thing should be raised on meta.SE. I was aware that the MO moderators had no control over this, and that meta.SE is the place to go if I actually want something changed. The main reason I commented here was to find out what kind of objections would be raised (thanks to those who voiced them!)

    I'm sure that as currently run MO will do well; I hope it attracts even more people!
  13.  
    Stephen, I'm a little confused by your response. Reputation is only one way in which the system keeps track of your actions and the community response. Counting the number of your questions asked that are made a favourite is another. Sure this doesn't have direct impact on reputation (provided a certain threshold isn't met) but I don't see how that's relevant, as questions can be measured by up/down votes as well as favourite counts.
  14.  
    I suggest that downvoting w/o loss of reputation for users beyond some (high, say 5K) point threshold be considered. This might help to enforce good questions while allowing for some discretion on the part of the power users.
  15.  

    @Steve: I don't see the point. Surely, users of high reputation can more easily afford to lose some of it.

  16.  

    I think it's important to have downvotes in the system.

    • They distinguish bad posts from posts that just haven't been up for long. Sometimes you really want to vote a post down for good reason, and it's silly to only allow you to do that by voting everything else up.
    • They give better feedback. For whatever reason, people are more likely to care about the question "why did my post get voted down?" more than "why didn't my post get voted up more?" Being downvoted without a comment is frustrating exactly because you want to improve (more than if you just hadn't gotten an upvote), but don't know how to. So when you downvote, leave a comment saying why, and if possible, also say how the post can be improved. People will listen.

    A quick glance at several user pages says that the number of downvotes in the system is very small (perhaps 30 times less common than upvotes), so I don't think that people are casting them thoughtlessly. I don't often see a post with a negative score without any comments explaining what's wrong with the post. If the goal is to make MO friendlier, I think eliminating downvotes is an artificial way to do it and probably won't work. If the goal is to distinguish great posts from good posts, I think that already happens because great posts get more upvotes. Adding the option of upvoting a post twice introduces more confusion about how to vote (which people have enough trouble with already), and begs the question, "why not have the option of voting a post up three times so we can distinguish posts that are better than good, but not quite great?"

    I saw a question the other day, I can't remember which, that I had downvoted at some point. It had been edited and made fine, but I hadn't noticed it at the time. When I saw it, it was maybe 10 days after last edit, and I couldn't change my vote.

    I thought you could change your vote at any time after the post had been edited. I'll look into this.

  17.  

    @Steve: Do you mean for the person voting or the person being voted on?

    @hanche: If Steve means for the person being voted on, one could imagine a (highly implausible) scenario whereby a cabal of users downvotes enough responses from a user with 10k+ reputation to get them below 10k reputation, thereby stripping them of access to moderator tools. Again, highly implausible.

  18.  

    @Qiaochu: I assumed Steve meant for the person voting.

  19.  
    I did mean for the person voting. The risk it introduces is of one or more people with 5K+ rep who then go amok downvoting things out of spite. I think this is rather unlikely, though possible in principle.
    • CommentAuthorblinowitz
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
     
    I have a general question about undoing upvotes/downvotes: Pete mentioned that it is possible to undo a vote made on a question by editing the question itself (assuming that you have the requisite number of rep points of course). Is there any way to undo upvotes/downvotes made to responses (without changing an upvote to a downvote or vice versa)?
  20.  
    @blinowitz: I am 99% sure the same technique works for answers.

    Added: I just remembered that I did this to remove a "strategic" downvote in an answer by David Speyer. So +1% on that.
    • CommentAuthorblinowitz
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
     
    @Pete: I didn't think that it was possible to edit other people's answers (unless it is community wiki)?
  21.  

    You can edit questions and answers alike at 2000 rep.