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    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     
    @Douglas: I would have downvoted the second one, but I didn't downvote the first one. I didn't even see the second one today.
    • CommentAuthorYemon Choi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     

    @Douglas: I downvoted the 2nd one also. I too think that it's a question of timing; I'm pretty sure that question didn't get jumped on as quickly, just because fewer people with the power to do so were reading. Your broader point might still stand, but I really don't think this is a useful example.

  1.  
    Is it really clear that we're getting a stream of questions that applied mathematicians would be able to answer if they stayed open?

    I honestly think that labeling some of these questions as "applied math" is just playing a part in a big game of hot potato: i.e., the applied mathematicians / computer scientists / engineers would lob them back at us just as quickly. (For instance I think that a lot of the traffic we get from Stack Overflow consists of questions that bored the experts over there, not stumped them.) A more honest label might be "outreach".

    Take for instance this question which I recently closed:

    http://mathoverflow.net/questions/13273/is-algorithm-development-to-approximate-auto-insurance-premiums-possible-closed

    Imagine asking this to an experienced actuary with an MS in computer science and a PhD in mathematics. At best, she would say, "You're going to have to be much more specific if you want me to be of any help", but I think she would more likely be less enthusiastic than that.

    (Once as a postdoc in Montreal I was teaching a multivariable calculus class for engineering students. The TA was an engineering master's student. In our first conversation he lamented that you could only take the cross product in R^3, so I explained to him that you can reasonably take the cross product in R^n for any n > 1: it's just that this is an operation which takes in n-1 vectors. He was really impressed by this, and later he ventured to ask me a question that he had been thinking about [and it is very telling that I cannot remember at all what the question was; usually I have a good memory for these sort of exchanges]. It sounded to me like an applied math question, and I had no clue how to answer it. Luckily, the math department at McGill has a huge and strong applied math contingent, so I got him to send an email to a very sharp young professor in applied math that I knew a little. A week later I saw her in the hall and asked what came of it. "Oh, nothing," she said. "The guy's question was complete garbage. It didn't make any sense at all.")

    It would be really great to see more good, solid applied math questions, asked by actual mathematicians rather than lay people. Truly. I think we can all tell a question which is well thought out and shows knowledge and competence without being well-versed in the specifics of the subject matter. (I myself am partial to questions with correct spelling and grammar. Note that the main sentence of the question cited above doesn't even quite parse.) Pure mathematicians like me wouldn't have much trouble identifying such good questions and good answers and learning from them.
  2.  
    I think I may have hit upon something towards the end of the previous message.

    On this site, a lot of the pure math questions come from established and even leading mathematicians. E.g. Kevin Buzzard has asked several number theory questions (if you don't know, Kevin is one of the leading number theorists of his generation (X , roughly)). I -- who am no Kevin Buzzard -- ask a couple of questions a week, not as yet anything critical to my present research, but mostly because I trust that most of the random questions that I would previously have thought about for a little while and then forgotten will be fantastically answered by someone out there and I and others will learn something.

    I haven't seen the same for applied questions: e.g. Persi Diaconis is not asking us for help with a probability question a little out of the range of his core expertise. Isn't that where the room for improvement lies?
    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     
    @Pete: Sometimes I wish there were a voting system so I could vote up posts like that one. I mean, the fact is, we're not really getting "the cream of the crop" with respect to applied math questions.

    Edit: Heh. You posted that while I was typing my response.
  3.  

    I agree with what Pete's just said.

    Moreover, I would add that leaving questions open just because someday someone might come along and answer them is just plain wrong. One of MOs strengths is its speed: it's for finding quick answers to quick questions. Even more for mathematicians than for programmers, it's a "save me a little time here" site. I could trawl through oddles of literature looking for information on whether or not a particular LCTVS is paracompact or not, or I could try to get a head start and ask here first. If I don't get an answer but was truly interested in the question then I'd go off and do the hard slog. Or at least, I could do so. So if I scan back through the unanswered questions, how do I know that the questioner is still interested in the question?

    I would love to see lots of applied mathematicians on MO. I'd love to see more algebraic and differential topologists as well. Not to mention functional analysts. But the MO community is not going to grow by forcing it, but by being convincing. And part of that is making sure that it doesn't look like a "Grill a Mathematician" site.

    It'd be great if Persi joined MO. I'd love to fire more questions at him and I'm sure he'd love to ask questions of the rest of us. I have a vague memory that he's not all that bothered about computers, though, so that might be a pipe dream.

    The basic problem with MO is that it is, at heart, based on a precarious balance. There are "questioners" and "answerers". Left at that, the incentives are all wrong and, what with everything else everyone has to do, the system doesn't work too well. The genius of SO is to realise that this can work if the two groups are the same. With software, there's a large enough community that this is a stable solution. I'm not convinced that we can have the same stability in mathematics so we need to impose it artificially.

    (PS My example above is a bad one since I'm very interested in paracompactness of LCTVS but haven't gotten round to doing the hard slog yet; however, if I hadn't said it here no-one else would know that.)

  4.  

    And further, addressing @Pete above.

    Personally, I think it's (always been) fine to downvote without commenting, and similarly I think it's fine to vote to close without commenting. On the other hand, if you can leave a helpful comment about why you're voting to close, that's better than saying nothing, and at least one of the votes to close should come with an explanation -- which is why I emphasised the role of the final voter.

  5.  

    I just want to make a couple comments which more or less amplify points from Andrew's last post.

    First of all, Pete, I can almost guarantee we won't see Persi on MO - he doesn't even use email. (I'll spare everyone a little rant here about the implication that probability is applied math.) But I think parts (not all!) of this discussion are making too much of the pure/applied distinction. I've seen a number of excellent questions in fields that aren't well represented on MO disappear quickly because no one answers or even comments on them. Like this one, for example:

    http://mathoverflow.net/questions/12420/asymptotic-non-distortion-of-the-separable-hilbert-space

    I don't mean to criticize anyone for not trying to answer this question, but I don't think anyone would say it's not up to MO's standards. This just reflects the fact that many areas of mathematics are not well represented here. The fact that there are few applied mathematicians doesn't necessarily have any deeper significance than the fact that there are few functional analysts.

  6.  

    Persi used to have something on his web page which said that he didn't use e-mail. It doesn't seem to be there any more, though.

    Another person that it would be interesting to see here, but who we'll never see, is Don Knuth, who says he stopped using e-mail in 1990.

    • CommentAuthorMark Meckes
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     
    Well, it's not strictly true, and never was (in recent years), that Persi doesn't use email. Non-junk email sent to his address is printed out by a secretary and left in his mailbox for him. On rare occasions he responds to email. But he doesn't have a computer in his office, and you might note from the URL of his web page that it's hosted at someone else's account.

    So Persi wasn't a great example for the point Pete was making. But the above suggests Persi's absence has at least as much to do with generational issues as his field. I doubt there are many algebraic geometers over 50 using MO, either.
    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     
    JS Milne comes here every so often, as does A. Hatcher. I think they're both over 50. In A.G. and A.T. respectively.
    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     

    Knuth also reads (some of?) email sent to him, at least on specific subjects. His answer to me was hand-written and sent through the snail mail, though.

  7.  
    Mariano, when you get older like that, are you going to restrict all commuications to IRC and face-to-face? ;)
    • CommentAuthorfedja
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     
    Well, Mark, many such questions are more like research projects. Take the monotone Lipschitz imbedidng for instance. I like it and am returning to it now and then but it is not one I will be able to answer quickly. That I post no response doesn't mean that I haven't tried or am not trying to answer, it merely means that I have nothing to say yet. I guess many other people are like that and you just do not see the undercurrents when looking at the statistics.

    By the way, the current set of policies makes me very reluctant to ask mathematical questions on MO. Perhaps, this is good for MO (what I want to know often has no motivation, background, etc., I just want to figure it out for its own sake; neither is it something that requires expert knowledge, what I really need is just somebody cleverer than I to spend a few hours/days/months figuring things out, which seems to be not what MO is for) but I have to confess that my willingness to hang on the site went down quite a bit from day one. Many proclaimed rules are just perpendicular to my attitudes toward what the
    mathematical communication is about. Perhaps, this is because I'm an analyst by training and MO was created by algebraists (you may say that the research field of the creators doesn't matter and that MO is open for everyone, but I still suspect that the cultural attitudes are quite different in algebra and analysis).

    Maybe, I'm entirely wrong about others, but I believe I'm fairly accurate as far as my feelings are concerned. And since we lack a big representative sample of analysts here, I thought it would make sense to post my individual thoughts and concerns however weird and unjustified they may be. I leave it to you to decide whether they are, indeed, representing some group point of view or whether they are just reflecting singularities of my charachter.
  8.  

    Another well-known older mathematician who posts here is Richard Stanley, who is 65.

    To answer Harry's implicit question, Allen Hatcher got his PhD 39 years ago, and James S. Milne is 67.

  9.  
    Fedja: That's an interesting suggestion, that the field of the founding community may have shaped the culture in a way that's stronger than just having a more visible presence. I hadn't thought of that effect before.
  10.  
    I'm not sure why people think leaving applied questions open is somehow bad. If you click the 'Unanswered' tab, you'll see quite a few open questions, many of them more than a week old, some several months old. What's so different about applied math that makes you feel applied questions have to be closed a few hours after being posted?

    Regarding the comment about "the main strength of MO is speed": seriously, let's give people some credit. If someone is intelligent enough to ask a good question, they are intelligent enough to know how internet forums work. They realize that if their question wasn't answered within a week, it is unlikely to get answered. There is no need to point that out explicitly, most people know that already.

    Some people leave comments saying "this question is unlikely to get answered here". I think it does more harm than good. People who get this may never check back for an answer, even though the answer may well come up. I've seen several questions marked with this or similar comment that eventually received a reply. The signal processing question that prompted this topic is another example. The question was unclear, sure. The author assumed we all know DJ terminology, which we didn't. So all that was needed was a clarification, and indeed someone asked for a clarification in the comments. But by that time there were also two comments saying "this question in inappropriate for this site, go try elsewhere". It's not very surprising the author didn't hang around to clarify what he meant.
  11.  
    If you don't have the background to judge whether a question is nonsense or not mathematical, please don't vote to close it. The structure of MO gives you the power to vote down or vote to close questions in areas you don't like or don't understand and to make MO less friendly for some areas of mathematics. Please don't use your power to do that. Again, that's what it looks like the current members of MO are doing. Of course some bad questions come from outside math, but when there are good questions, you don't give them the benefit of the doubt, and you block people from answering.

    @ Pete: If you can't tell whether a question makes sense, how are you so certain that MO has not started gathering people who do have enough of an applied background or enough communication skills to answer? How do you know I don't have those skills?
    • CommentAuthorfedja
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     
    I guess it would be nice to impose a 5 hour moratorium on downvoting and closing (with some obvious exceptions like homeworks, etc.) or something similar and restrict ourselves to clarification requests for the first 5 hours after the appearance of the question. If the question is still bad after 5 hours, unleash your downvotes, if you want. "5 hours" is, of course, just "some reasonable time sufficient for all goodwill efforts to take place".

    @Douglas: How do we know your skills? Well, you are not so hard to find on google, so we have some idea of what you are -:) But I second all other points you made.
  12.  

    @fedja, I'd appreciate if you could clarify your earlier comment. I'm not sure what being an algebraist vs. an analyst has to do with MO policy nor what you find disagreeable about it and I'd like to know if it's something the community can address.

  13.  
    I don't understand the decision to close the thread. It's a perfectly valid question, IMO maybe it's hard for people "far" from being applied or musicians to understand, but perhaps those people shouldn't feel compelled to comment on every thread on MO.

    I'd be happy to ask someone who is an expert on this question to comment on the thread if it were re-opened.
    • CommentAuthorKevin Lin
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    I'm once again late to the party, but I would like to say that I agree with most of what Tom LaGatta said earlier, and I agree with what Douglas Zare said regarding applied math questions being held to a higher standard than "pure math" questions.

    A few of own "pure math" questions have been asked with only a very vague (or half-baked, or only partially coherent) idea in mind. I post such questions in the hope that the vague idea has some sense (or if it's nonsensical, that someone can tell me why it's nonsensical), and that someone can point me to a reference (if one exists) where the vague idea is made more concrete.

    Examples:

    I would say that all of these questions are vaguer than or as vague as, for instance, the question we had a while back about walking vs. running in the rain. Douglas is right: while vague "pure math" questions seem to be relatively well-received, the applied math questions are often very quickly shut down.

  14.  
    I think rapid feedback is valuable, so I'm not in favor of any sort of 5 hour rule.

    The structure of MO gives people powers they should not use. For example, someone with a high reputation should not edit others' posts to deface them. I think people will be mature enough not to do that, although I see some discussion here that someone voted down all of another user's questions and answers. I have been disappointed by the use of MO powers to discourage people from posting and answering some types of questions.

    @ Fedja: The point was not my particular strengths, but as far as I know, you can't find much about my strengths from Googling me. You'll find that my Ph. D. was in pure math, 3-manifold topology, but not that I have been helping my wife's spectroscopy research group with numerical analysis, functional analysis, and statistics questions, for example. I found it neat to see actual physical problems which lead you to use things like the Hilbert transform, which seemed unmotivated in my analysis class, and to see that the foliations of hyperboloids of one sheet by lines are useful for designing resonating chambers for lasers. So, I don't see how Pete can decide that the MO community doesn't have the skill to handle imperfect questions from nonmathematicians. Repeatedly declaring it may encourage people to leave soon after finding MO, though.
    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     
    I thought that we didn't want nonmathematicians on MO? I mean isn't it in the FAQ that MO is for research mathematicians/prospective mathematicians who are asking research-level questions (mostly)?
  15.  
    Harry, beat-matching and pattern recognition is a research level subject. Take a look at what's published in the Journal of Mathematics and Music, for example.
  16.  
    I think the faq only says that questions should be about research-level math, and it seems people in this thread agreed that signal processing qualifies as math.

    The closest thing in the faq I could find is "the intended audience is professional mathematicians, mathematics graduate students, and advanced undergraduates", so it seems that as long as the question is interesting to this audience, anyone (mathematician or not) can ask it.
  17.  
    I would suppose that questions that aren't phrased in the language of mathematics are not really of interest to such people, but it's really not for me to suppose such things, as mathematicians et. al can speak for themselves.
  18.  
    This takes us right back to the OP: instead of trying to understand what the question is about, people want to see fancy terminology?
  19.  
    I think this is a perfectly understandable difficulty that we've gotten ourselves into here. It stems IMO from the fact that the general population on MO does not accurately reflect the mathematics community -- we have a strong bias towards subjects like algebraic geometry. Until the population is suitably diverse it will take special care on the part of the more influential members of this community to grow MO into a more balanced collection of interests.
  20.  
    Harry, the OP is using terminology that readily translates into mathematics. We have plenty of threads here (already pointed out) that are hopelessly vague. If anything, I'd say this is an extremely good question and a healthy mathematics community would readily reach out to such people and fill in the gaps, supply the terminology so that people outside the ivory towers could peek in and see what we have to offer.
  21.  
    I vote down pure math threads more than applied math threads. Take, for example, Hans Stricker's latest post. It uses lots of jargon, but it's a bad question. I just don't think it's appropriate for someone to post a thread like the one in the OP without first at least trying to make it readable to a mathematician.
  22.  
    The question about signal processing was perfectly readable to mathematicians familiar with signal processing. At least three people have mentioned that already. Just because someone (say, a number theorist) doesn't understand the math involved (or even whether there is any math involved) doesn't mean other mathematicians will not be able to figure that out.
    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    I have assured the OP of that question via a comment that FFT itself can be implemented and that the existing DSP processors are powerful enough. I was an electrical engineer, but stayed silent to stay anonymous. However this discussion is going on and on ..

  23.  
    Are you a famous electrical engineer or something? Also, you should really use your real name. Nobody is going to hunt you down or anything.
    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    No, just an electrical engineer who felt that he should do math instead. I still feel I need my anonymity. I would rather not use MO than not have it..

  24.  
    I am sorry to hear that some people seem to feel that some of my remarks on meta could scare people away from MO. Rather I was trying to help. I'm sorry that I voted to close the signal processing question -- I've said so several times, and I have voted to reopen it. (It's not obvious to me that it was perfectly clear to any MO users, since everyone who showed a desire to answer the question asked for further clarification or made prefatory remarks about not being sure that their response was relevant.) In general I see relatively few applied math questions (in part because there are relatively few to be seen) and I rarely vote to close. With the possible single exception above, I don't think I have ever voted to close an applied question that contained high level, specifically mathematical [applied math is still math!], content. I promise to be even more mindful in the future.

    Is it really contentious that we don't have many regulars on MO who are answering applied questions? I didn't realize it was. As for Douglas Zare: please do become more involved in answering such questions! If you leave a comment indicating that you are thinking about the question, that will make high rep users like me much less likely to vote to close it.

    Regarding Persi Diaconis: I wanted to pick an example of a leading figure in an applied field that everyone would know and like. I certainly didn't mean that we should try to recruit him specifically: rather, I was brainstorming about how to build a community and making a point that the site would be improved if we had a Diaconis-type contributor. Moreover, not every probabilist is an applied mathematician, but Persi certainly has done a large amount of fantastic work in applied parts of probability.

    @SheldonCooper: Do you know Charlie Eppes? Do you think he would be interested in MO? :)
    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    @Pete. Engineering mathematics is very boring. Please have a look at the voluminous book of Erwin Kreyszig and you will surely agree with me. For what it is worth, I found the math which I learned in signal processing courses much more interesting than what I had to learn in the compulsory engineering math courses, and I found the latter extremely depressing. My view is that applied math is more interesting when looked at from the perspective of applications.

    You get a certain intuition in Fourier transforms when you use it for electrical or communications systems. Even now I don't know distributions very well, but I can do some Fourier transform calculations in the non-rigorous, but perfectly natural way.. And I find that trying to bring in the theory of distributions destroy all intuition and messes it up.

    It is like, it is much easier to decide whether a "usual" function of a real variable is continuous or not by looking at its graph, rather than trying to check with all epsilons and deltas. You do not mention them at the start of your calculus class, do you?

  25.  
    Strictly speaking, you can't reallly see removable singularities until you've found them algebraically or otherwise.
  26.  
    Anweshi, not all engineering math is boring. Look at what people do who study flexible membranes (like large tents), the mathematics is very similar to general relativity as you're dealing with Riemann metrics and stress tensors. So much mathematics to basically study the dynamics of plastic shopping bags!
  27.  
    @Anweshi: When I last taught calculus, I did exactly what you say: I described a function as being continuous at a point if its graph was an unbroken curve near that point. With this I defined a limit as the value that, if you (re)define the function at that point to be equal to its limiting value, makes the graph continuous. This did indeed work a little better (although I think honestly that the math grad student who sat in on my class that day liked it more than everyone else put together). From this perspective, a removable continuity is sort of a curious thing: someone has screwed up a pefectly good continuous function by changing or removing its value at a single point. It would be tempting to rule out removable discontinuities as "contrived examples" when doing applied work.

    To give you an idea of how I used to teach calculus classes, the first time I taught first semester calculus (ten years ago), I gave them an optional challenge problem to show that it was not possible for a function from to R to R to have a removable discontinuity at every point. I think this persuaded everyone to ignore my challenge problems for the entire semester.

    By the way, this exchange seems off-topic for this thread, though I find it soothing after the recent volley of rather intense posts, some of them aimed in my direction.
    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    @Pete. For what it is worth, I myself feel that the question in MO which started this discussion was off-topic.

    Anyway, I saw your complaints about understanding Fourier transforms, and so I mentioned all that. Here's some 5 cents more:

    For example, the Dirac Delta function approximately occurs when you have a sudden high and brief surge of current in your electrical system. Like what happens when you have a lightning. To get the ideal delta function, you start with a smooth function supported on [-a.-a] which when integrated gives 1. And you let 'a' go to 0, and correspondingly scale the value of the function so that the integral is the same. The Fourier transform of a signal is its "frequency spectrum". You watch in that "frequency domain" what is happening, when you do the above approximation process in the "time domain". This is actually something you can do with constructing some circuit and observing on the "CRO" -- the Cathode Ray Oscilloscope, which is indispensable in every electronics lab, however small. However one does not actually need to set it up so and see it; with some experience one knows what will turn up without actually doing it. For example, when a spark or lightning happens, there is a disruption of noise in your radio or tv. . And it happens no matter the frequency you have tuned it to. This is because the delta function has Fourier transform 1, ie it is a constant in the frequency domain, and therefore the noise created by a signal which looks roughly like it will appear uniformly in every frequency.

    Similarly, note that the sudden switching on/off of current is like the step function. That also has a very wide Fourier transform, ie, frequency spectrum, and your radio/television experiences a brief noise when this happens. Same is the case with loose contacts touching and going off. When the contact breaks or makes, there is noise even at high frequencies.

    Also note how easy it is to prove the Parseval: The energy(rather, power) is the same, whether you look at the time domain or the frequency domain. It's just a different way of computing energy, which is the same wherever you look from, as per a physical law. How very natural!

    The Fourier theory is very nice to study from an electrical or communications perspective. I still like it even after seeing the theory of distributions, which is the one making it all rigorous.

    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    @Ryan. I only said that engineering math is boring when it is seen as a bunch of tools, such as what is given in the book of Kreyszig I mentioned. However it is very interesting when you see it in an applied situation, such as I saw in signal analysis. I am sure the application you mention is also interesting.

    It seems it is difficult to convey the problem without actually having taken a course in it. Here's the fundamental dictum of engineering mathematics: "Every function is just its Taylor series around the point you like, and in this Taylor series everything starting from the x^2 term should be ignored".

    It is very hard to learn things when presented without any clue of what the hell is going on.

  28.  
    Teaching engineering effectively is quite tricky as you have to balance a lot of things. I imagine keeping a rigorous and detailed mathematical framework is usually pretty far down the priority list, that's why engineers ask mathematicians to teach them math, in a sense. Mathematicians tend to have the opposite problem of knowing the tools in detail but lacking a detailed understanding of how they're used in practice.
    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    @Ryan. Yes, it is true, it is much better when a mathematician teaches engineering math. But when the syllabus and the book are in a sense fixed, there is not much that can be done. I do not wish to get into all that again and rake up old memories, but one of my engineer friends who also entered math is very interested in properly teaching engineers. He wants to revamp the way the whole stuff is taught, and is an advocate of the idea that only people who have seen rigor are up to the task of engineering math, though the subject itself is not supposed to be rigorous.

  29.  
    Your friend should maybe take a look at what they do at the Engineering Math and Math Physics program at the University of Alberta. Basically, all those students get run through the first half of the honours math curriculum. It's a very serious curriculum by north american standards, doing calculus from the point of view of an analyst throughout. Meaning proofs are required from the students from the first day. The engineering program there is very competitive so the U of A has the resources to pull something like this off. I think it's something that'd be hard to do in most universities.
    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     

    @Ryan. My friend is as of now just a postdoc. However I will pass on the information to him and he will be greatly interested, I am sure. Thanks for pointing out.

    • CommentAuthorAnweshi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     

    @Scott Morrison.

    You once urged me not to bother replying to calculus questions, etc.. Your point was valid. However, I was once an electrical engineer, and I had a desire to do math, and in the days when I explored the idea or just started making the shift, I must have appeared as a complete dumbass to the professional math students, or profs for that matter. I remember those days, and that was why I was feeling kinder to those amateur chaps.

    However in this thread the question had nothing much to gain from MO, as FFT algorithms exist already, and are very effective too on the DSP processors of these days. My feeling was that there was nothing inappropriate in closing the question.

  30.  

    By the way, the question is reopened.

  31.  

    There seems to be a basic philosophical disagreement here regarding what our responsibility is, as a community, to reach out to the wider world. I would like to make two arguments in favor of outreach:

    1) Mathematicians have a bad enough perception in the public mind as it is. Anything we can do to convince them that mathematicians are interesting people whose skills have relevance to the real world can only help us out. (We are interesting people whose skills have relevance to the real world, right?)

    2) MO is somewhat high up on the public lists of StackExchange sites, so we are going to get a lot of non-mathematician traffic whether we want to or not. The question is whether to view it as a burden or an opportunity.

    • CommentAuthorYemon Choi
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     

    @Qiaochu: I agree with 1) in principle, but I really don't think MO is a good way to do it because of the signal-noise ratio.

    As has been said before by various people several times, there is an argument for having a fairly focused site doing a few things well. Outreach also involves either diagnosis or tailoring to the audience (IMHO). My personal preference is to err on the side of being Stuffy and Uncool and Like Not Chilled Out (but courteous and receptive when the question has been posed helpfully, regardless of its topic).

    2) I find this less than convincing. We can make this decision for individual questions, but I am not keen for the site to be swamped with people wondering if we can help get their cat down from the tree, although I don't mind so much being called if there's something strange in the neighbo(u)rhood... Lots of things are popular without being good; lots of things are desired without being healthy.

    To recapitulate: your first sentence seems to conflate our responsibility as an academic community with our (purported) responsibility as this online community. I think it's consistent for me to think that in the former role we could and should do more, without thinking MO is the place to do it. Still, I admit that maybe it comes down to my Eeyorish/Benjaminesque turn of personality: this youtube clip (language perhaps NSFW) may perhaps convey something of my underlying prejudices http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLb7tOl-pHc