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Community: d*mb and st*p*d on MO

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    Here is my little attempt to increase civility on MO. Two suggestions:

    1) Never use the words "dumb" or "stupid" to describe anyone other than yourself, for any reason.

    2) When you wish to refer to your own question, thought or mistake as dumb or stupid, show your support for the idea that these are "dirty words" by writing them as d*mb and st*p*d, or some equivalent construction.

    Disclosure: I got this idea from Qing Liu, whom I "admonished" on self-use of the "s-word".
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    +1 to Pete.
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    Definitely agree on 1), but feel 2) is a little silly.

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    Of course 2) is a little silly. I can be a little silly. Who said I can't? :)
    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2010 edited
     
    Edit: I've redacted my comment because nobody will find it funny.
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    I definitely agree with number 1, but I will not write "d*mb and st*p*d" unless forced to at gunpoint.
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    Also agree on 1). I really don't think I can bring myself to write d*mb or st*p*d, but I do also agree with Pete's suggestion that dumb and stupid are better avoided even in reference to oneself, and I just look for different ways to make the same point. ("Oops, I wasn't thinking", etc.)
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    Has 1.) been a problem?
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    @Pete: Of course you can be a little silly. But you're asking us to be a little silly too, and we can manage that quite well without your help, thank you very much.

    Yeah, I agree with 1) too. And I second fpqc's question. We can fill meta with discussions of all sorts of hypothetical problems, but I think there are enough real ones. (Plus, there must be many ways to convey the meaning of “dumb” and “stupid” without using those words. They should probably be avoided too.)

    • CommentAuthorIan Durham
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     

    At the risk of starting an all-out war, let me just say that if your aim is to increase civility on MO, my recommendation would be to be less condescending, patronizing, and "holier-than-thou" to those who do not think precisely the way you do.

    At the further risk of God-knows-what, click on this link: http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/617 and scroll down to my conversation with James Putnam starting with his comment posted at Feb. 17, 2010 @ 19:13 GMT. That is a civil conversation.

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    Let's not have an all-out war, or indeed a war of any kind.

    Ian, there are evidently some things you don't like about Pete's contributions (assuming your comment was directed at him). But can you please have that conversation in private? Mail him, phone him, IM him, write him a letter... but please, don't do it here. I don't think this is what meta is for.

    • CommentAuthorIan Durham
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     

    Tom, point taken. I commented because it was Pete who started a thread about civility. I have just grown tired of rude, insensitive, and seemingly unfeeling people whose idea of helping seems to be making a person feel like an idiot instead of spending a little time trying to understand where a person is coming from. True understanding (empathy, patience, or whatever you want to call it) seems to be sorely lacking in the world at large these days . I find it particularly sad and depressing that people can't even recognize the difference between the two.

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    Dr. Durham, this is really not pertinent to the discussion at hand. Please take up your issues with Dr. Clark's conduct privately.

    • CommentAuthorIan Durham
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     

    @QY: Tom just made that point. However, it is germane to any discussion of civility. It's not my fault Pete started the thread. I don't care who started the thread. The point is that any discussion of civility ought to include a discussion of tone.

    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     
    Ian, your you're being a little disingenuous here. The denizens of MO certainly did try to help you fix your question. A lot of them, in fact. However, it turned out that we were right and that you didn't know what you were talking about. You have a lot of chutzpah to keep bringing this up.

    You were not wronged. You wasted a lot of people's time, and they were still quite patient with you.
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    I believe that Ian Durham [who has told me that calling him Dr. Durham is condescending] is referring to the following more recent question:

    http://mathoverflow.net/questions/16077/quantum-channels-question-2-tensor-products-and-composition-of-functions

    Since I have already apologized twice to Ian Durham for unexpectedly offending him, I don't see what else to add by way of direct response. I do feel the need to take issue with the characterization of my behavior as not "spending a little time trying to undertand where a person is coming from". I made several comments with exactly this goal, and I looked up some things in order to make my comments. I spent at least half an hour doing so. Unfortunately, these are the very comments that Ian Durham found snide and condescending. That inspired a feeling in me: sadness.

    If anyone else feels that my comments and/or answers on MO have a snide undertone, please do contact me privately and let me know what, specifically, you have found problematic. Thanks in advance.
    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     

    No, I think that your responses were actually really charitable for a question that doesn't make any sense. I will note that Ian has been crossposting between here and the nLab, where I've been following this story. You'll notice that much of what he's posted there doesn't make sense either.

    • CommentAuthorIan Durham
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     

    But, Harry, you will notice at nLab that the folks have been much more helpful. It's called simple kindness and encouragement ("Oh, you didn't get that right and it won't work, but have you tried this method?"). Where I come from and how I was raised, what Pete and a few others do around here doesn't qualify as either. Civil? Maybe. Friendly, kind, and encouraging? Far from it.

    Either way, I am done with this site. The fact that absolutely no one on this site can see what I'm talking about here (or is willing to come to my defense if they do) is enough for me.

    Note to MathOverflow organizers: please kindly delete my account both here and on the main site. I want nothing to do with this site ever again.

    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     

    I want nothing to do with this site ever again.

    Pinky swear?

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    Ian, no matter how much you dislike the users of this site, your questions have been criticized (and some of them closed) for valid reasons. You have previously tried to explain this as being a disconnect between mathematicians and physicists, or as being due to other users' personal quarrels with you; it's quite clear that neither of these is the case. I understand that no one enjoys hearing that their questions or ideas have significant problems, but leaving in anger would only 1) appear to confirm to other users that the criticisms were valid, which I'm sure you do not want, and 2) prevent you from rationally listening to our advice, prolonging the time it will take for you to fix any errors we have correctly pointed out. Lastly - I think I've been quite courteous while making constructive criticisms of your questions,

    http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/206/1/threshold-for-reasonable-debate/#Item_8
    http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/206/1/threshold-for-reasonable-debate/#Item_26

    and I would not appreciate my time having been wasted on someone ultimately unwilling to listen.
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    The physicist / mathematician disconnect certainly isn't helping matters. As I noted in the comments to Ian's recent question it was responsible for at least one of Pete's questions, the cause of which was a disconnect between how physicists and mathematicians use the word "matrix."

    • CommentAuthorYemon Choi
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     

    @qiaochu: I'm not convinced that the purported disconnect is that relevant. I think that one shouldn't extrapolate from small sample sizes: moreover, just because some of us can't follow, it doesn't mean that others wouldn't be able to discern the intended question or germ of an idea, and be able to offer more detailed corrections.

    Sadly, I have no way of forcing either Bob Coecke or David Kribs to log on and devote time to this, so I can't really do much more than not comment. Which should really be my policy on this meta-thread, come to think of it.

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