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  1.  

    This is actually a rare [big-list] question that I think is pretty good, but I see it has accumulated a couple of votes to close. Disclaimer: I'm thoroughly biased because I'm one of those people who go to dinner with Richard and talk about these kinds of puzzles ad nauseum.

    http://mathoverflow.net/questions/29323/math-puzzles-for-dinner

  2.  

    I had some qualms, too, but I think it's specific enough to work.

    • CommentAuthorYemon Choi
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2010
     

    I would actually hate to find myself at a party or at dinner talking about these kinds of puzzle. Talking shop (lectures, notes, refereeing etc), perhaps. Talking maths, perhaps. But cool puzzles? I've just not really wanted to talk about these things in social situations for most of the last ten years.

    Mais chacun a son gout. I personally find the question hard to defend against accusations of double standards (it is either big-listy or too-much-a-chatty-blog-topic, IMHO) but am refraining from voting to close just yet. Perhaps someone on this meta thread can sway me?

    • CommentAuthorAgCl
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2010
     
    I think it is a nice big-list, I am against to close it. Also I believe it should be made harder to close questions with sufficient number of up votes.
    • CommentAuthoralgori
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2010
     
    I think this is an excellent question and it would be shame indeed if it gets closd.
  3.  

    I think it's a lousy question, but I think I'd better keep a low profile for a bit.

  4.  

    Same.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJon Awbrey
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2010 edited
     

    The instructions were as follows:

    I'm generally interested in problems that are mathematical and not just logic puzzles. They shouldn't require written calculations or a convoluted answer. And they should be fun — with some sort of cute step, aha moment, or other satisfying twist. I'd prefer to keep things pretty elementary, but a cool problem requiring a little background is a-okay.

    If you post the answer, please obfuscate it … Don't spoil the fun for everyone else.

    I posted the following puzzle:

    Theorem. In the long run, numbers get even.”

    Now, I've actually used that one several times over cocktails, and it was always “well-received” as they say. The average cocktailer does a half-second double-take and realizes that every even number is singly even, every fourth number is once more than the singly even already accounted, every eighth number is once more than the doubly even already accounted, …, and so the obvious series tells us that whole numbers are on the (multiplicity weighted) average exactly even.

    Well, I didn't want to spoil anyone's fun, but being suspended for that has already spoiled it for me.

    More importantly, it's bad enough when people don't give reasons for their down votes — but I consider it a serious abuse of the "offensive post" flag to criticize a good faith answer that is given in the spirit of the question asked.

    Jon Awbrey

    • CommentAuthorKevin Lin
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2010 edited
     

    Jon Awbrey: I guess I understand your "solution" to your "puzzle", but it's not really a well-posed mathematical puzzle -- I guess one might say, at best, that it's more of a linguistic puzzle.

    The 3 bulbs puzzle is another example of a not-really-mathematical puzzle.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJon Awbrey
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2010
     

    @ Kevin Lin — I doubt if it's a good use of anyone's time to split hairs over the distinctions between conundra, koans, puzzles, and riddles — no one was asking for problems of Math Olympic stature, nor even good exam questions. The question and answer themselves are trivial matters.

    People who want to criticize the qualities of questions and answers are free to do so by means of comments or by means of thumbs-up and thumbs-down votes.

    Using a flag that is normally reserved for offensive comments, deleting answers so that no one else can see what is being discussed, and suspending someone for a good faith answer — those actions go beyond the pale.

    • CommentAuthorAndrea
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2010 edited
     
    @Jon: I downvoted your puzzle because:
    -It wasn't a puzzle (at least, it was not asked as such)
    -I could not understand the meaning it
    -It just seemed out of place

    Now that I have read the solution I still think this is not a mathematical puzzle. The prerequisites you have to give for the question to make sense (I will count the average number of powers of two by a series...) are exactly what is needed to answer it. At best it is a remark (Hey, have you ever noticed that if you count...).
    •  
      CommentAuthorJon Awbrey
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2010
     

    @ Andrea — I have no further interest in defending the answer itself. The question called for dinnertime “fun, with some sort of cute step, aha moment, or other satisfying twist” — if my amuse bouche did not amuse thee, then feel free to trade it with the person at your elbow. But SPAM it was not.

    Of all the times that a downvote calls for a supporting explanation, this is probably not one of them. The thing that leaves a residual bad taste is the misuse of a flag that most folks consider reserved to offensive posts, and then being sent away from the table. Those are more general procedural issues that I think deserve further discussion. A casual observer seeing that big red banner on my user page would think I committed some outrageous offense. I do not think that kind of sanction is called for here.

  5.  

    The moderators are very reasonable, and if you talk to them (not at them) in private, I'm sure it would be more productive than posting here on meta.

    • CommentAuthorAndrea
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2010 edited
     
    @Jon: I'm not claiming that your post was SPAM. I'm just claiming that it was not easy to recognize it not being SPAM. Without any explanation, it really looked (to me) like it was. Really, I think that all the misunderstanding comes from the fact that you know you have given a honest answer, but other people read it and couldn't distinguish it from SPAM.

    Consider it from the point of view of another user. You are expected to read a puzzle, and you read a theorem whose content makes no sense. Wouldn't you downvote it?
  6.  

    Perhaps he was trying to pull a Bilbo Baggins on us, "What have I got in my pocket?"

  7.  

    Actually, in this case, Jon is doing the right thing by talking about his recent suspension here on meta rather than with the moderators. I decided to suspend him, and I think it's reasonable for the meta community to ponder this decision and, if appropriate, tell me I did the wrong thing.

    I saw his post, which already had a number of negative votes. It made no sense to me, and apparently had nothing to do with the request for mathematical puzzles appropriate for dinner conversation. I see from Jon's explanation here that there was actually a puzzle, but his original post certainly didn't make this clear to me. By this point, Jon is the clear leader in terms of number of posts with negative votes, and to me at least most of his posts make no sense whatsoever. I decided that it was plausible on account of the many negative votes that many other people also can't make sense of his posts, and as such treated the post as spam (or at least, an annoying waste of people's time), and suspended Jon for a day.

    Please -- do not turn this thread into a public discussion of Jon's behaviour on mathoverflow. If you have a comment to make about the particulars of this incident, please email me about it, scott@tqft.net. It's appropriate to speak in generalities about the suspension process, however.

  8.  

    There ought to be a certain (published) treshold where, if you have made sufficiently many posts but your score is still negative, then you get either suspended or at least put on probation (somehow).

    I like the iconoclasts who think differently than the rest. BUT, if you're going to try to be 'in' a community, then you need to try to make your thoughts comprehensible to 'the rest'. They may not agree, but at least should not feel that the answers (or questions) are spam or rude.

    You might still get no traction with the community in some cases (see some of my own questions on MO which seem to have fallen flat), but nevertheless are seen as contributing (see some of my traditional answers to some mainstream questions).

    • CommentAuthorYemon Choi
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2011 edited
     

    The latest bump of this question to the top page is by a new answer which, after stating the puzzle, says

    PS: sorry if cross-posting, I didn't read all the answers...

    Might I suggest that this is evidence that the thread has outlived the immense but finite usefulness evinced by its high score?

    Edit: it seems that I misunderstood the remark that I've quoted -- see later posts in this thread -- so I would like to withdraw my inference, if not my opinion of the original question.

  9.  
    I would suggest that it is evidence that one poster acted badly. If we close very question in which one poster acts badly....
  10.  
    By the way, Yemon, what is the point of cursing in Quebecois?
  11.  

    Like most cursing, to relieve stress.

    On a less frivolous note: I really can't see a reason for the question to stay open, and since I use the front page of MO rather than the sub-tags, while occasionally being interested in some big list and soft topic questions, the reappearance of this question irks me. That said, it is not something I feel I have an objective argument against (in terms of a question being at the wrong level, or argumentative, etc) so if enough people still actively want it reopened then I shall acquiesce.

  12.  

    It might be a good idea to put in a brief word in the FAQ about all these questions with high vote count and lots of answers that are closed. Doubtless it's confusing to new users.

  13.  

    +1 Quaochu

  14.  
    Hi all, sorry for being here only to explain what I meant.
    I'm the one who wrote "sorry if cross-posting..." unfortunately, English is not my first language, and I find myself sometimes (ok, often) saying things that do not correspond with what I mean. What I meant is that I didn't solve all the puzzles, as I explained later when I edited my post. And actually, I still don't see any of the other puzzles being equivalent to mine (but of course it can be just because I can't solve all of them). Probably not, but in case my answer has been the "final straw" to make close the question, well, I'm sorry.
    Best regards,
    Klaraspina
  15.  

    @Klaraspina:

    No worries. To be honest, if your answer actually was the "final straw" that led to the closure of the question [I don't know whether this is true and am not interested enough to find out], some people would probably thank you for it -- probably including me. Speaking personally, I don't want to trade brainteasers over dinner, and I don't want to see brainteasers on MO: there are plenty of other sites for that. But I do think it's a matter of personal taste, so I generally don't vote to close such questions myself.

  16.  

    @Klaraspina: apologies for misunderstanding your comment. While I didn't want the question open, I'd like to stress that this is nothing personal (your answer was just one in a series which have made me feel that the thread had lost what value it might have originally had). I hope this doesn't put you off participating on MathOverflow.

  17.  
    As the OP, I was in earnest surprised to see the question stay open as long as it did. I guess bumpings were sufficiently infrequently to not draw too much ire. The question does seem to have stirred a divided response (see the large favorite-upvote disparity). I suspect it was unintentionally effective at separating the tastes of theory-builders from the those of problem-solvers (in the vein of Gower's "The Two Cultures of Mathematics").

    As for Yemon's comment question (more appropriately addressed here): "Am I the only person who goes to social events with mathematicians and drinks, banters and has pointless debates about politics or films?"

    Certainly not. I'm sure I spend far more time chatting with other mathematicians about politics or film (or food, current events, economics, or many other topics) than I do discussing mathematical puzzles. But I'm also sure an MO question about any of these topics would be closed with extreme discretion (as well it should). And one of my goals was to, within the bounds of MO acceptability, ask a lighthearted and social question. (I know well that this goal is anathema to some of you.) I strived to frame the question in the most MO friendly possible, knowing there was a high barrier to cross.
    • CommentAuthorklaraspina
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2011
     
    @Yemon Choi : no, no, your vote won't put me off on MathOverFlow... I've just earned the "enthusiastic" badge! I know that I have communications problems, it's quite a (funny!) matter with my supervisors as well...

    Just, I don't know if it's common, but I'm not a pure mathematician anymore; I was studying, and I'm still interested in, Arithmetic Geometry, but the technical details are out-of-my-reach, so I just read, but can't contribute much. Instead, questions like this, I agree, stimulate the problem-solving attitude that every (I think) mathematician has, but in the end there are problems that need some theory-building to be proven... I wouldn't stress this dichotomy as a fundamental one!

    And regarding conversations topics, well, I'm also used to deal with politics (I'm Italian!) with my friends and collegues, but sometimes it's nice to take a break and think to something less emotionally involving, like puzzles... to keep the brain awake, without stress.

    But at the end of the day, I agree that there are enough puzzles for the next few months!