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    • CommentAuthorE.S
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011
     

    @Thierry Zell, your statement "they feel that their home lives make more demands on their free time than the home lives of their male counterparts." is evidenced in the math movie :The Proof.

    • CommentAuthorA Girl
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011 edited
     

    I really enjoyed reading the post of Izabella Laba on her blog: http://ilaba.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/why-im-not-on-mathoverflow/ I share many thought of her. It seems that the basic concern is still that women are ignored. I am so confused about the roots of this. As to me, if a woman is in math, it looks so elegant and attractive, so purely stylish and fascinating as mathematics itself. There should not be any kind of ignorance. I would say there should be extra attention and support for women thoughts and ideas. Moreover, it sounds right to enjoy environment where both genders cooperate and contribute. Maybe I am too young to understand the real life, but it seems to me that I would not enjoy to be in the environment where only one gender (does not meter which one) is represented.

    • CommentAuthoran_mo_user
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011 edited
     
    A Girl, in case you do not yet know about it http://www.awm-math.org the website of the Association for Women in Mathematics could be of interest to you.
    • CommentAuthordeane.yang
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011
     
    George, I apologize for using the word "wasting". Please replace it by "devoting so much time with".
    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011
     

    Izabella writes:

    Others might be more likely to show up if casual participation were easier and more rewarding, if we didn’t expect it to take forever to convince people that we might actually know what we’re talking about, if we had no reason to believe that we’ll keep getting a lot more shrugs than up-votes for a long time.

    This is one of the two reasons behind her non-participation, I think, along with lack of time. I don't understand this, really.

    • How could casual participation be easier? To participate, one does not even have to sign up, if I recall correctly: it is simply a matter of asking a question or providing an answer to one.

    • In what sense could casual participation be more rewarding? In the abstract, for me the rewards of participating have been in getting exposed to interesting pieces of math that I would probably have not come across otherwise, getting a few questions answered in very useful ways, learning a huge lot from lots of other participants, and, not least, gained the feeling of, well, being part of a community of sorts. Symbolically, my participation has also been rewarded with a certain number of points, but the accumulation thereof is only possible my participation is not casual but recurrent; indeed, the only sensible meaning I can attach to the number of points is as a measure of the amount of participation and value added to the site as seen by others.

    • I don't understand why anyone would expect «it to take forever to convince people that we might actually know what we’re talking about». I have not noticed anyone struggling with that on MO---it would be interesting to know if this actually happens. Where do "reason[s] to believe that we’ll keep getting a lot more shrugs than up-votes for a long time" come from? I honestly do not think MO's history, so far, has given any.

    • CommentAuthorRyan Budney
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011 edited
     
    @Mariano: I suspect these reasons Izabella are giving are perhaps not to do with actual experiences on MO, but are more built-up from other ways of interacting with mathematicians. Because if you choose to participate on MO anonymously, there's no way people can know your gender, which makes it very difficult to have gender bias. I suppose if you treat all anonymous users as if they're female you could have a type of gender bias but that's more of an anonymous-user bias than a particular gender bias...

    We have two data points now: my anonymous friend and Izabella and the primary commonality is time constraints. My friend also seems to be indicating she has alternative social-media mathematics resources that are a better fit for her life. This partially coincides with Izabella's choice to be a blogger.
    • CommentAuthorEmerton
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2011
     

    Dear Mariano,

    Having read the blog post, I think that expecting it "to take forever to convince people" is an extrapolation from experience in the general mathematical community. With regard to your remark that "it would be interesting to know if this actually happens", I think that the blog post makes a rather strong claim that this does happen to women in mathematics.

    Regards,

    Matthew

  1.  
    Beyond any gender issues etc., I simply think it's easy for people to get a mistaken impression of what MO is about unless you've visited the site a few times. I know that I heard about MO way before I first signed up, but I initially didn't even check it out simply because I had a completely mistaken preconceived idea of what the site would be like (including concerns over the reputation system).
  2.  
    Dear Deane, no offense taken: I suppose I just wanted to express my enthusiasm for and loyalty to MO!
    • CommentAuthoresmeyny
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011 edited
     
    1. I am a female mathematician who spends a lot of time on the internet and in communities and I do not post on MathOverflow and I do not have a blog.

    2. For me, the key issue is anonymity (and it is more than ironic that you do not allow guest posts here to the questions why there are not more registered female mathematicians on mathoverflow).

    2a. Why I would want anonymity:
    *I know several women who have been stalked as a result of offering their identity on the web.
    *My experience as a female mathematician is that I am always extremely visible and always judged in a doubly comprehensive way:
    A single act is enough to judge my whole personality and ability and my acts stand for acts of all women.
    My real-life is peppered with comments like "You do X, that is strange, my wife does not do it.", "You do X, typically female, my sister, wife and mother also do it.", where X can be all kinds of things.
    When X is judged typically female, a negative explanation is always added for free.
    (Women prefer to use the mouse for some irrelevant stuff on the computer? They do not want to learn shortcuts and commands for the keyboard even though it is quicker.
    Women prefer to use the keyboard for some irrelevant stuff on the computer? They do not have spatial abilities and like to stay in a one-dimensional command line.)
    When X is judged as typically male, the conclusion that I am not a real woman is added for free.

    *I *am* treated differently on the web as soon as people regard me as female.
    *The reaction of real-life colleagues of a prolific internet poster/blogger is different according to gender. (Arrogant or self-assured? Bitchy or courageous?)

    2b. Why I do not get anonymity on places like MathOverflow or would not post under the circumstances that allow anonymity
    * A pseudonym is not enough to remain anonymous.
    Nationality, current affiliation, approximate age, specialty.
    Take two or three of them and a female mathematician is uniquely determined and do not tell me that one can hide age, affiliation and nationality. Of course, one can, just as one can hide gender, by hiding one's IP address and staying out of discussions that concern me personally (or, more concretely, I cannot tell you how I heard of this discussion).

    * Being anonymous means that I do in fact not get any real reputation from answering stuff on MathOverflow, which makes things much less attractive when I see that at the same time other people do get it. I know all about gathering reputation under a pseudonym and I do not really want to compartmentalize my professional reputation.
    * Hiding my gender would mean giving answers to math questions AND having to read about women not contributing. Been there, done that on other fora.
    (Note that a truly gender-neutral nick is always interpreted as male and if you correct people's pronouns they act miffed that you as a woman have not done your duty of indicating that you are a woman.)

    3. I tend to get angry at some subjects and the web tends to permanently remember things. Women who are angry are always judged negatively (see above). Of course, this is a lesser issue at MO, but it might still come up, more relevant to blogs.

    4. Note that the particulars of MathOverflow do not enter the equation except for the fact that it is more rewarding if you use your full identity while you engage with other mathematicians. I might still decide to post at MathOverflow, but the point is that you have to look out in *real-life* how people talk to and about female colleagues.
    • CommentAuthorgrp
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    Esmeyny, it sounds like you have been "burned" in other places, on and off the Internet. There are those here at MathOverflow who would like it to be a welcome place for all who enjoy/practice mathematics at a professional level. If you choose, you could contribute partly by pointing out where you see that MathOverflow does not seem so welcoming to professionals, especially if such seems targeted toward gender. I and others would appreciate such feedback, although we would enjoy your professional contributions even more.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this forum.

    Gerhard "Ask Me About System Design" Paseman, 2011.04.02
  3.  
    This question "Why women are not active in MO" has no sense. And if you would substitute MO by any other activity then still you would get a non-sensical question.
  4.  
    esmeyny, thank you for your rather sobering but very helpful comments.
  5.  

    @esmeyny: thanks very much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Of course I wish what you had to say was not so overwhelmingly negative, but as those are your actual thoughts and experiences, omitting or soft-pedaling them would be less helpful.

    Regarding pronouns: there is a war here for those who wish to fight it. Many years ago I noticed that in between the Nth and (N+1)st editions of Spivak's Calculus (I forget the value of N), he changed over from using the pronoun "he" for all mathematicians (e.g. "A mathematician would accept this as a proof because he would know how to formalize it") to using the pronoun "she" for all mathematicians (replace "he" with "she" in the previous). At the time I found this jarring and maybe a little silly. More recently I have started doing it myself: I use "she" a lot of the time when referring to a generic mathematician. Not all the time: if I want to contrast a negative behavior or incorrect idea to a positive behavior or correct idea, I use "he" for the former and "she" for the latter.

    For a recent instance of "mathematical she-ing", see the abstract for my recent talk at Georgia Tech:

    http://www.math.gatech.edu/seminars-colloquia/series/algebra-seminar/pete-clark-20110331

    In fact a colleague of mine from UGA (the talk was a double-header) noticed and remarked upon my she-ing.

    Me: Well, don't say that Pete L. Clark never did anything for women in mathematics. He: You know, I've heard you say that before. Me: Right!

    Of course the first line is somewhat tongue in cheek, because this is such a small thing to do. But why not do it?

  6.  
    @Pete: I used to be rather frustrated that there's no "acceptable" gender-neutral pronoun in the English language. So I started using "it" wherever I would have used "he" or "she". That really pissed people off! This was back when I was in high-school...
  7.  

    @Ryan: yes, "it" is pretty off-putting. To a certain extent one can get away with using "they" in place of "he or she", at the expense of conflating singular with plural. I actually think this is the least jarring solution I know, although to those who dictate what is correct English usage it could hardly be worse.

    A few years ago I mentioned to my mother (a retired English professor) that I use this construction sometimes, and she found it literally risible: i.e., she laughed, then she saw I was serious, then she ridiculed me. (Nevertheless she still thinks of me as a somewhat pedantic grammarian, but it's all relative, I suppose...)

  8.  
    The singular they was good enough for Shakespeare, Jane Austen, and God, so it's good enough for me.
    • CommentAuthorA Girl
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @sergei tropanets: why did you answer it then?
    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @esmeyny: I find your suggestion that women are potentially treated wrongly on MO offensive (I am not talking about other Web communities). I have been active on MO for about 9 month and I have not seen one such accident. I think if you have an interesting question or answer, just post it. There is absolutely no sexism or any other ism problem on MO. As for the voting system - it is for attracting teenagers, and has virtually no connection with the real life reputation. Most people are using MO to learn things and to help other people learn things, not to get points. -- Mark Sapir
    • CommentAuthorRyan Budney
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011 edited
     
    markvs: I suppose I read esmeyny's post as more of a comment about the internet, with a peripheral comment on MO. If anything the (lack of) progress of this thread is indicator of what a complete *vacuum* this forum is for female mathematicians.
    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @Ryan: This discussion is not progressing because there is no substance. If there is no problem, there can't be a solution. Personally I think that this discussion should be closed and if A Girl or @esmeyny have any interesting math questions or answers, they should post it on the main site. If needed, I personally promise to be as polite with them as with any other MO members.
    • CommentAuthoresmeyny
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    markvs
    @esmeyny: I find your suggestion that women are potentially treated wrongly on MO offensive

    Please say more precisely what exactly you find *wrong* in my post if anything. For example, I do not remember saying anything at all about the voting system on MO. If you cannot point out anything in my post that is wrong then you should think very hard about why you label it as "offensive" and demand that the discussion should be closed in reaction. You behave like a man who is going a couple of meters behind a woman on the street at midnight and finds it offensive that she changes the side of the street and insists there is no problem at all since he is no rapist.

    markvs
    @Ryan: This discussion is not progressing because there is no substance. If there is no problem, there can't be a solution. Personally I think that this discussion should be closed and if A Girl or @esmeyny have any interesting math questions or answers, they should post it on the main site. If needed, I personally promise to be as polite with them as with any other MO members.

    I heard about the question why there are few female mathematicians on MO, so I came here to post my reasons, I did not force this discussion on you to distract you from mathematics. I don't see how the question of whether or not I have "any interesting math questions or answers" is coming into this discussion after I have already explained my reasons for not posting.

    Oh, and I recommend to everyone who is actually interested in this general topic to do the two tests involving gender on
    https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
    There is one on the implicit associations of gender and sciences, and one of the implicit associations of gender and career/family.

    (Of course, it would also be interesting to find out how mathematicians typcially score on the preference of letters versus numbers test, but I guess that this is neither about Women on MO nor an interesting math question.)
  9.  

    @markvs-

    You're being part of the problem here; both esmeyny here and in Isabelle Laba's post which is linked from this thread, the authors point out that they are not enthusiastic about starting to use MathOverflow because they've received poor treatment from male colleagues and in internet fora before, and your response is that you're offended? Way to make people feel like they'll be welcome in our community!

  10.  

    +1: Ben.

    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @Ben: I think the problem does not exist, so I cannot be a part of it. esmeyny thinks that since she was treated badly somewhere else and she heard that some other people were treated even worse there, she should not post to MO. I think that comparing that some other Web place to MO is offensive to MO and to all people actively participating here. You may think otherwise, of course. In any case anybody with a good question or answer is treated the same way on MO unless they are Fields medalists in which case they are treated somewhat better. I am sure you agree with me on that.
  11.  

    If nothing else, esmeyny's comments do shed a whole other light on the (much debated on meta) issue of anonymity and the advice to use one's real name (under faq).

    • CommentAuthoran_mo_user
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011 edited
     
    In relation to Todd Trimble's remark the follwing link is perhaps interesting (documenting a discussion on this for Launchpad)

    http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Launchpad_users_encouraged_to_use_real_names

    And, just in case somebody is still in search for evidence of sexism on the internet, the site will point to a greaty variety of it.
  12.  
    @A Girl : That was not an answer. For there can be no answer to non-sensical question. That was a point. In my opinion, Your intention is brutal and vulgar. There can be no connection between any kind of activity and sex. Any kind of artificial increasing the number of women/men in some field is unnatural and harmful for that field.
  13.  
    @sergei tropanets : If all you are going to do is throw around insults ("brutal"? "vulgar"?) and unsupported assertions (no connected between any kind of activity and sex?!?!?), then do us all a favor and stay out of this conversation.
  14.  
    A few general remarks:

    It is notoriously difficult for a non-minority group to notice discrimination towards the minority. As a male, I am privileged. That is, I have the "privilege" of not noticing. Why? Because when people use the pronoun "he" I don't have to think to myself "Ah, that includes me." We can do all sorts of things to get better at seeing this (for example, I think that after taking a class on the history of the civil rights movement I've become quite a hardcore feminist, and now I notice much much more than I did... which mostly leads to a lot of anger), but we are still at a disadvantage.

    When it comes to mathematics, this is even more difficult for me. Because I love mathematics very much, and one of the reasons that I love it so much is that I feel like it's a safe-haven away from many political and social ideas. In mathematics you can be correct and you can be incorrect, and that correctness or incorrectness is independent of the author. But, if that's true, why so many white, well-off men? I suppose it's because, at the end of the day, humans are running the show. (Perhaps more correctly: at the end of the day *men* are running the show.) And this sucks, but it is the reality of the situation.

    Contrary to the statements of markvs, however, I think that all men should admit that we are, in some sense, part of the problem. It's unfair, and it's rather de facto, but as long as women are born as unequal then we will be born as problem-makers. And we need to accept that, and try to do what we can to (1) admit that we are in a privileged position, (2) try as best we can to be aware and raise awareness of injustices towards women, and (3) do what we can to, in our own way, try to change things. Does that mean that everyone needs to start volunteering for women's movements and become a political activist right now? No, I don't think it does. But it does mean making a positive effort in whatever small way that you can, whether that's pointing out remarks as sexist, catching yourself assuming someone is a secretary, etc.

    In this specific case, I'd like to address MO: I think we need to get "on the offensive," so to speak, with regards to this issue. Here are some things we/the moderators could do *right now* to start dealing with this:
    1. Change the suggestion regarding anonymity on the faq to instead suggest the format "FirstInitial. Lastname" in place of anonymity. This keeps the professional look of the site, but makes it more difficult to immediately know someone's gender.
    2. When current members hear their female colleagues have an interesting question, suggest that they post it on MO. This is kind of basic 'advertising' that could be used just in general to get more people to use MO, but I think that it would perhaps be more important to direct towards the unrecognized minority here.
    3. Find a female mathematician who is willing (and qualified, I'm not saying just pick the first girl you see) and invite her to be a moderator on MO. This will give her an instant "reputation" boost, and she would be more likely to see instances of sexism and sexism in the large. At the moment this site is not only populated by men, but run by men. (No offense to those men- they're quite good at what they do.)
    4. Meet with (in person or via email) members and officers of AWM to try and get feedback and suggestions for how to encourage more equal participation on the site. I understand if the official representatives of the site are very busy; perhaps someone could volunteer to do this? I would be happy to do it, but I understand if we would want someone whose been on the site longer and is more of an important figure (e.g. a professor or graduate student.)

    And those are just a few I thought of off the cuff, there are sure to be many more. The point is that I don't think it's enough to just open our arms and say "we would love it if you joined the site!" We need to run in for a hug. Once again, I understand that many of us are busy... but I think that right now it is more inconvenient women to do something than it is for us to do something.
  15.  
    @Moderators: What sergei just said is perhaps just as rude as other comments I've seen deleted. I don't think the ignorance present in that post has a place here.
    • CommentAuthorEmerton
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     

    Dear Dylan,

    I agree with both of your posts. Well said!

    Best wishes,

    Matthew

    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @Dylan: Forget women for a moment and consider Jews which are also a minority. There are lots of antisemitic, neo-nazi, and simply totally idiotic Web communities. If a Jew gets there he/she will be surely insulted. Many Jews had negative experience like that. Nevertheless, there are many participants of MO with Jewish names, including myself. The problem with women on MO does not exist. There are concrete people: Dusa McDuff, Joan Birman, etc., and younger people like Olga Kharlampovich, Karen Vogtmann, or, even younger, Maryam Mirzakhani, who would be great MO members. But so would be Gromov, Serre, Tate and Milnor (and also younger people like Okounkov, Perelman and Smirnov). The problem of attracting more good mathematicians to MO does exist, and if you know a good mathematician personally, invite him/her to MO.
    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @Andy: Yes, there is activity related to sex. Sex, for example. Math, on the other hand, has nothing to do with gender. Women are as capable to ask a good question and give a good answer as men. On the other hand it is certainly important to attract women to math in general. It is important to hire women faculty and provide them with opportunity to be productive mathematicians. But this is a completely different problem.
  16.  

    +1 Dylan.

    One thing that I've noticed as a student is that, while today there are usually several (usually not parity still) women among fellow students, there still tend to be very few among the professors (and my department is admittedly unusually skewed in this regard); it reaches the point where it is almost surprising (and I'm embarrassed to say this) to see a woman as a tenured professor, not (I hope!) out of any sexism on my part, but simply since -- mostly coincidentally, I would say -- I've never interacted with a female mathematician for a significant length of time (e.g. by taking a class, doing a project), and I've been habituated, lecture after lecture, to think of "professor" as "middle-aged male." And, however many times I say the word "noetherian ring" or see women on the department list, personal experience seems to be irreplaceable.

    Having hung around other mathematical communities on the web, this extreme imbalance is clearly present there, too, to the point where I actually notice if someone has a female username--and I clearly shouldn't, any more than I would notice that the person wears glasses. Maybe it's just me, but I doubt it.

    So, I actually think that it would be great if lots of women would come to MO--and not just come, but come with their full usernames, so that it would become completely normal to see Jane Q. Mathematician speedily answering questions on motivic cohomology. Which would thus visibly obliterate the current situation, not only for MO's sake but more generally for mathematics's -- wouldn't it be awesome if MO trends could change stereotypes about mathematicians? However, Izabella Laba and A Girl and Esmeyny have observed that there are sound reasons for the reluctance of many women to use their full names on the internet, so it seems that dispelling the problems that lead to these reasons would, in fact, be highly desirable.

    @Mark: My guess is that the anti-Semitic communities you describe are pretty rare on the internet; on the other hand, sexism seems much more common both in meatspace and on the internet, as evidenced by some of the above links. (For instance, I myself can recall very instances of acquaintances being genuinely anti-Semitic, but I've met plenty of misogynistic guys in real life.)

    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @Akhil: there was recently a community on Facebook with 300,000 followers whose stated goal was to exterminate all Jews. It was closed by Facebook a few days ago (probably because the founder of Facebook did not want to be exterminated). You can read about it on CNN, I think. Aljazeera.com is still open, though, and you can see discussions there if you want. There are also a lot of sexism in the real world, I agree. But it has nothing to do with MO. It would be great to have more good mathematicians on MO. And yes, if some of them are women, it would be only better. What we do not need is to invite women for the sake of inviting women.
  17.  

    @Mark:

    By the way, I should clarify that I'm not trying to say anti-Semitism doesn't exist (IRL or on the internet), just that (as far as I can tell) sexism is more likely to be a problem on a generic math or science or programming forum.

    Perhaps you're right and sexism isn't a problem on MO. But how do we know unless we let people -- especially women, who are more likely to notice it -- talk freely?

    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    @Akhil: But we do have women on MO and as far as I can tell they are treated the same way as men. Right? At least I did not notice any difference and they don't complain. As I understand, A Girl and the other two women here are not active members of MO. It is correct that sexism on math and science related communities is most probably more common. But I have not seen one instance of it on MO. Perhaps somebody could give an example? So if A Girl and anybody else want to make sure MO is safe, why don't they look at the questions and answers there?
  18.  
    @Akhil: there are a lot of pretty simple reasons that have nothing to do with sexism that cause female mathematician's time to be eaten up, making participation on sites like MO rather difficult. A lot of it has to do with our desire to get women mathematicians to participate in *everything*. If you look at the schedules of prominent female mathematicians like Vogtman, Birman, Tillman, etc, they tend to be on enormous numbers of committees, panels, giving talks all the time, lots of grad students, actings as editors, etc. A generic academic's life has loads of little things that eat up time, and for women there's much more of it. In a sense it's because of the relative scarcity of strong female role models in mathematics that strong female mathematicians' time is so consumed.

    Rather than looking at women, look towards other sorts of "relatively exotic" mathematicians -- in topology among *male* mathematicians I consider Rob Ghrist and Gunnar Carlsson to be relatively rare as they're strong topologists that have built bridges into engineering, and concrete real-world problems. You don't see them on MO, either. I think Ghrist gives over 30 talks around the planet per year.
    • CommentAuthorabmiller
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2011
     
    (I'd like to start by saying that I am a woman on mathoverflow, and this site has treated me in a very welcoming and respectful manner, but I don't really feel like I can speak for anyone other than myself on matters of sexism. I don't feel like I have encountered very much direct sexism in my life, but I'm pretty sure that some of this is my personal obliviousness and some of this is unusual to my situation.)

    I've appreciated reading the comments on this thread and have generally found them very interesting, but I'm feeling somewhat disappointed by the path that it has taken. I'm concerned this may be devolving into a conversation between male commenters about matters only tangentially relevant to those brought up by the female users. If this is the case, I don't find it to be a very good way of convincing women that the MathOverflow community is more inclined to take women seriously than either the mathematical community or other online communities.

    (I would like to note that many of you have impressed me with your consideration, and do believe that there's a silent majority out there that's listening and supportive; after all I'm usually a member of said silent majority. And I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms here; I just want people to be aware of what might seem to be going on.)
    • CommentAuthorA Girl
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2011
     
    @markvs: I am sure that MO is women friendly. The original question was about its percentage of presence of women at MO. Comparing with percent of their presence in math it is very small...
  19.  

    @abmiller: I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify? It is hard to reread an entire meta discussion to remember what everyone has said; these things have a tendency to devolve anyway...

  20.  
    Mainly @markvs: You ask for examples of sexism, here are two ( the second one is something I only remember, I could not find it if asked to; for the first I could give a precise link):

    a. In a question the reaction to asking a certain type of mathematical question was compared to the one one would receive "asking random women their age and weight". [After somebody pointed out that this was an inappropriate formulation, it was change.]

    b. A female user retags a question of somebody else. The annoyed reaction to this I observed was such that I felt that the gender of the retagger was relevant in this situation. It was not explicit and the reaction was also not extreme, but still I got that impression.

    Now, fortunately I do not remember many more instances, and thus also believe that there is little explicit sexism on MO. However, if I understand for example Izabella Laba correctly, then the main concern is not easily visbible or 'provable' forms of sexism, but an accumulation of small events (such as b. I describe above), where perhaps each taken in isolation could be unrelated to gender but the accumulation creates the pattern.
    In the same vein, I believe the concern is not that of not being welcome at all or not being accepted at all, but that of being welcome and being accepted, yet just a bit less so.

    Is this a problem on MO? Well, it is a problem (to differing extents) in basically every environment (dominated by males). It thus seems extremely unlikely that MO is the island of absolute gender equality. And, yes, for the last inference one does not need to know the site well, or at all.
    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2011
     
    @A Girl: The correct answer was given to you several times already. Women are busy, busier than men usually. Since there are few women mathematicians, the best of them are invited to all sorts of panels, boards, and conferences as Ryan mentioned in his comment. Plus they usually have more responsibilities at home. All the other answers (potential sexism, different brain structure, etc.) are not correct, I think.

    @an_mo_user: I missed these examples. But as you pointed out yourself in each case it was quickly corrected by other males. If one participates in a community with 10000 members, one should expect a certain small percentage of these people to be idiots. The community is good if these people are isolated, and their behavior is neutralized by others.
  21.  
    "... and do believe that there's a silent majority out there that's listening and supportive"

    Yes, as a member of it, perhaps I should say so explicitly. Although this is a potentially divisive issue,
    I hope that this discussion can be carried in a respectful manner. How people are treated here
    matters as much to me as the mathematics.
  22.  
    As somebody who uses constructs such as "madam chairman", "madam postman", and "madam fireman" IRL (and considers these most grammatically correct), I don't think that use of male pronouns in isolation is sexism. Further afield, I don't think mankind should be personkind, or that Manchester should be Personchester.
    My thoughts about all such issues are that the real issues should be kept very much separate from the trivial issues. I'm strongly opposed to any revision of the English language, even if in math papers I myself would write in a gender-neutral way in order to conform. That said, the issue of language use pales in comparison to my opposition to sexism in science. We should fight such patterns of lazy thinking in ourselves. Quite apart from anything else, the minute one turns math into an Old Boys Group is the minute it stops being about mathematics.
    So I agree that we need to catch ourselves if we assume a woman mathematician is a secretary or a student, and not do so again. But I'd still see nothing wrong with calling the generic mathematician (or member of any other non-gender-specific trade) "he", because language is precious and shouldn't be tampered with.
    That said, I stand behind my previous comment- I don't think anything should be done on a site level. But on a personal level, we should try not to discriminate against groups of people- and I'm speaking to myself as much as to everyone else.
    • CommentAuthorgilkalai
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2011
     
    Dear all,

    The interesting question is indeed why women are not involved in MO. Perhaps, it will shed light on the question why men are involved in MO. I agree that sexism over MO does not seem to be the answer and moreover that there are no examples of behavior over MO which is specifically or intentionally unfriendly to women. Overall, I think we should realize that we do not have a good answer to this question. (Well, we do not have good answers to many questions.)

    Dear Mark, while the idea that women are busy was raised several times I dont think this is "the correct answer". For example, I dont know if women who are graduate students or young faculty are more busy compared to men.
  23.  
    I should add: I wouldn't judge sergei too harshly, because there are different cultures in play on MO. I do think he was attacking a straw-man, in that nobody suggested affirmative action on MO; but I didn't read his comment as sexist, or even as being substantially different from what others are saying (except in tone).
    The more this thread becomes linked with politics and religion (and gender politics is both), the less happy people will be; so my opinion is that we should make sure no problem arises in the future by evaluating people as individuals rather than putting them in a mental box (on MO and in life), and end of story.
  24.  
    @markvs: The reasons you give in your answer to A Girl seem to me to be part of the answer. However, in view of the statements of I. L. (this seems more pronounced in the answer she gave in the answer to her blog post than in the post itself) and esmeyny (and in view of the scarcity of first-hand reports on this matter these two are a very significant proportion of actual facts we have) I cannot see how you can maintain that what you say is all there is to the subject. Both left no doubt that their gender plays a role in their decision not to participate or at least not to participate intensely (and the latter is what seems most relevant to the origin of this discussion). True, they said their decisions are also or perhaps mainly or even only based on their life-experience in general and not something specific to MO, but this does not alter the fact that their gender plays a direct role in their decision (as opposed to an indirect one of the form ' female thus less time/more comitments; less time/more comitments thus no participation').

    @Daniel Moskovich: regarding language, I believe based on some things I heard and read from people doing research in this subject (it was for an other language than English but the issues are sufficiently similar), that things like pronouns have an actual subconcious effect. And, since this subconcious effect reinforces existing stereotypes it is relevant to avoid it. Indeed, a researcher on these matters said that in her opinion if there were gender equality in the society this issue would be much less relevant (or even irrelevant). Yet, it is relevant as long as there is inequality. In other words, to her it is first and foremost a means to an end (more gender equality) and not so much an end in itself.
    Sidenote: your 'funny' example of 'Personchester' is a bit ironic, I am not sure whether intentional or not; if not the section ethymology on the wikipedia page of 'Manchester' tells why.
    • CommentAuthormarkvs
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2011
     
    @Daniel: Manchester should be spelled "Liverpool". That was observed by Karl Marx long ago.