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  1.  
    Being new to MO, I took advantage of my recent post [1] to experiment with jsmath, in the process doing more than 8 edits - not realizing this would turn it into CW. I most emphatically did not want that. Is there any way to undo the CW? It seems bizarre that 8 edits should do that. It makes no sense to me why there should be any correlation between edits by the author and CW. Rather than discouraging elaborations, corrections, etc, they should be encouraged.

    If there is no way to undo the CW how can I delete the post and repost it?

    [1] http://mathoverflow.net/questions/32133/expressing-adja-as-a-polynomial-in-a/32343#32343
    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    On the one hand, I sympathize with you, but on the other, caveat emptor. http://mathoverflow.net/faq#communitywiki

  2.  

    This issue's come up before. My guess at an explanation is that the software assumes that if a post is being edited many times, it is being edited by many people, so the corresponding reputation should no longer "belong" to the original poster. That, or maybe it was designed to prevent malicious editing from negatively impacting the original poster's reputation.

    I really hope you won't delete the post and repost it; you'll lose all the comments that way, and I think they are valuable.

  3.  
    In this case what pushed it over 8 was a "pedantic" edit by another user, and my rolling it back - since that edit misunderstood my intent. Can't a moderator remove the CW label?. It's really completely uwarranted in this case.
  4.  
    If I delete the post I will incorporate the remarks in the repost. I must say that I find this policy quite disturbing and completely unreasonable.
  5.  
    One good thing about this rule, is that it discourages users from
    repeatedly bumping their questions/answers to the top of the
    list just by making minor edits.
    • CommentAuthorHarry Gindi
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010 edited
     

    @Bill: I totally agree, but there is nothing we can do. It is built into the software. If you had just quietly deleted your post and reposted it in a new answer, I don't think anyone would have noticed/cared, but I think now that you brought people's attention to it, you might have a tougher time.

    I see no problem with you deleting/reposting (note: I have no authority at all), but I think that some people here might be annoyed if you circumvent the system. I say that you should just go for it and not worry about actual consequences, because at the absolute worst, the moderators will re-CW your answer if they feel so inclined.

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    While I don't completely agree with Mariano's edit of your answer (a space and a comma? Come on..) I don't think that in itself is what pushed the edit over the limit. As I understood it the limit is hit when the original owner edits 8 times. So I don't think his edits counted toward the eight (or the FAQ needs to be rewritten), nor do I think, did your roll-backs. According to the revision history it only became community wiki after the 12th version. Which meant that the two pedantic edits by Mariano and your revert to version 7 didn't count toward the limit.

    You should really proofread and check over your typing before clicking submit...

  6.  
    In this case my edits were made all over a very short period so bumping is not relevant. However, one *should* be encouraged to add elaborations, fix typos, brainos, formatting, etc. without having to worry about CW. This is my first experience using a forum where my posts can be edited by other users. It's quite unnerving that others users can force my posts into CW. Such powers can too easily be abused. I'm seriously debating whether or not I wish to continue using MO given such flaws. It has a great community, but the design of the software leaves much to be desired. One could easily do much better.
    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    @Bill, please read my comment that appeared right before yours. I don't think other users can force your post into CW (unless 4 high rep users gang up on you and each makes an edit). The edits by Mariano and the revert didn't count toward the 8. And I suspect that this is intentionally built into the software to prevent precisely what your last post is complaining about.

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    Also, the system as it is has the side benefit of forcing people to be more careful about what they write.

  7.  
    I should add that the reason I committed some of the edits is because the preview window seems to have some problems, so the only way I could be sure how the jsmath would render is by committing them. Is there no sandbox which one can use to perform successive iterations avoiding the edit limit?
  8.  
    @Willie: while I agree that design should encourage careful writing, I strongly disagree that some randomly picked number of *syntactic* edits should have any role in the *semantic* decision as to what deserves to become CW. Nor do I think that such a decision should be made by a machine - however smart an algorithm one might try to devise.
    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    Most of the problems in the preview window happens with the underscore character in math formulae. When that happens the rendering goes bonkers and parts of your text appears italicized/mathmoded. To fix that put the offending math formula inside backticks/accent graves.

    If you were having other problems, please described them. It may warrant a bug report.

  9.  

    Sorry, but there's no way for me or any other moderator to remove CW status from a post (see this meta.SE request). The software forces a post into CW mode after edits by four different users or after eight edits. The basic reasoning in the case of four different users is that it stops being reasonable for one person to accumulate rep when it's not so clear who "owns" the material any more. The basic reasoning in the case of eight edits by the owner is that the mechanism prevents people from trying to game the software (e.g. by bumping their question/answer once every 30 minutes). I'm pretty convinced that both of these mechanisms need to be there in some form.

    Though I would like to see moderators have the ability to remove CW status in exceptional cases, I think the current automatic mechanism is pretty good. It does happen that a post is forced into CW mode when it "shouldn't be" because the frequent editing was "legitimate", but I think it's pretty rare. There's hardly anything surprising or disturbing about the software not handling every case exactly right. Even if it were an option, I would be opposed to making the rules for when a post is converted to CW randomly more complicated.

    Edit: btw, there is a mechanism in place to protect compulsive editors to some degree. Edits made within a five minute period all get counted as a single edit, not as a bunch of separated edits.

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    @Bill: the algorithm is precisely not smart, and cannot (nor was it ever intended for it to) tell apart the two different sort of edits. I respect your opinions on what the rules should be and what their implementation, but I should note that the rules of the game have been written down in plain view, so forgive me if I find the specifics of this complaint (that you want to revert a post to non-CW) a bit hollow. But the more general aspect of your complaint (about the implementation of the 8-edit rule) deserves more discussion, and I think it may be good to start a new thread about this.

    Also, just a technical note: I am not sure if you can post another answer to a question if you have currently a deleted answer. I seem to remember that when clicking the delete button it warns you that you won't be able to make a new answer after deleting a current one. But I may be remembering incorrectly.

  10.  
    I'd be very grateful if someone could please elaborate on the pros and cons of deleting and reposting the post to pull it out of CW. Suppose that Victor agrees to repost his comments, so that the post and comments are recreated exactly (modulo timestamps). Afaik then the only data lost are the votes on the post and comments, which presumably will work their way back with time. Is that correct? Please keep in mind that I've only been active on MO a couple weeks so I may be missing something obvious to those more experienced.
  11.  
    Is there some reason why the author of the edit is not allowed to decide whether or not it is significant enought to warrant bumping? Further, why isn't the author warned say a couple posts beforehand that CW is on the horizon? That's not very user-friendly.
    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010 edited
     

    @Bill: I just started a new thread on the very matter in your last post. Please take a look and comment!

  12.  

    I should add that the reason I committed some of the edits is because the preview window seems to have some problems, so the only way I could be sure how the jsmath would render is by committing them. Is there no sandbox which one can use to perform successive iterations avoiding the edit limit?

    What problems, specifically? In the early days, there were some issues with the client side preview manager not matching up with how markdown is handled by the server, but I think all those have been resolved. Can you give a specific example of something where the preview did not match the final output?

    Regarding a sandbox, you can try faketestsite.stackexchange.com. It's using MathJax instead of jsMath right now (we expect to switch MO to MathJax in the not-too-distant future), but just about any difference between the preview and final output should be apparent there.

  13.  
    @Anton. I've switched to Chrome from IE and jsmath seems to be working better. With IE jsmath was frequently bombing out (in __footer?) long before completing the rendering. It's a mess in IE. One of the problems I had with the preview is that in some case line breaking wasn't consistent with what was posted, and I wasn't sure what subset of LaTeX I could use to correct such. E.g. I often try to vertically align equations to get the sytax to reflect the semantics (e.g. making substitutions obvious, aligning similar structural elts, etc).
  14.  

    @Anton: This is often what happens when the LaTeX "bugs out". It happens seemingly randomly, and the symptoms are that the LaTeX output comes apart and smears letters all over the screen (usually on the righthand side). I can alert you to it whenever I see it, if you want.

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     

    @Bill: yeah, unfortunately jsMath is platform dependent. It works almost perfectly in Firefox for me, but I hit odd rendering problems every now and then with Opera.

    • CommentAuthorMariano
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010 edited
     

    Hmm.

    I have historically corrected quite a few typos in both questions and answers, and this is what I did here. In particular, I have added diacritics a few times, in some cases with knowledge that the original author did not know how to type them, and in other cases with the presumption that that was the case. In this special case, I insisted in the edit because I assumed this was a case of simultaneous edits (it would not have been the first time) and because, according to the FAQ, the second edit would not have been counted in turning the answer into CW---not even in terms of author-count, I had already edited the answer.

    (@Willie: "a space and a comma? Come on..", If you look at the changelog, you'll see that I changed that only the second time. It required zero energy to do, and it removed a typo. Maybe it is just me but typos do make things more difficult to read for me!)

    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2010
     

    @Mariano: being a curmudgeon myself about typos and such, I sympathize with the urge. In the end it probably just boils down to our different level of tolerance. By-and-by, I wasn't pointing fingers or anything; it was just a poor way of saying that you made some changes which I personally would not have bothered with (even had I the power).

  15.  

    I think the bigger point here is that "community wiki" just isn't that bad an outcome, and I'd encourage people to not mind their posts being converted to community wiki.

    Your text is already CC licensed and editable by many users. Becoming CW just means you don't get further reputation from the post (no big deal, right? that's not what we're here for?) and that a larger pool of people are now allowed to edit. If anything, take having your post CW'd a badge of honour --- the post didn't languish in obscurity, but rather was read and digested by several people, to at least the level they thought they could contribute to it! Wow!

    If you're really concerned about the fact the software gives you slightly less attribution after a post moves into CW mode, feel free to edit the post to add your signature as the last line.

  16.  
    Also, as far as reputation is concerned, if your question is CWed, then any reputation you gained from asking it initially (or any reputation given to people that answered the question earlier) doesn't disappear. Since it presumably takes a while for the six-edit limit to be reached, the loss of reputation is probably not that large.
  17.  
    Perhaps I should clarify my concerns. My objection to my post [1] becoming CW has nothing at all to do with not being able to earn MO rep. Rather, it has to do with the fact that it opens up the post much more widely to editing abuse - which already happened here. This was in fact the first time that one of my posts was edited on MO, and this edit by Mariano significantly changed the meaning of what I had intended by adding emphasis to a phrase where I originally had no emphasis (see below for details). The effect of this edit was that it turned what was meant to be a bit of joking wordplay into a remark that could easily be misconstrued as being pompous. Indeed, soon after Mariano's edit my post was downvoted - though I don't know if that was due to misperceived pomposity or due to the fact that someone was unhappy that I rolled back Mariano's edit - which I had to do *twice* since he had the nerve to undo my first rollback! I found the matter quite unnerving - esp. given that Mariano certainly knows well from our many prior interactions on sci.math that we hold very different opinions on various subjective mathematical topics (e.g. pedagogy). As such, he should never be adding emphasis to anything that I write here. Nor should he be making trivial edits that might push the post into CW. In my mind that is a gross abuse of power (the 2nd time this has happened to me in the 2 weeks I've been active on MO).

    For the record here are the details of the edit: recall that my post [1] was about the universality of polynomial identities, and one of my main points in the post was to encourage readers to *resist* the temptation to dive in head first and apply brute-force topological arguments (e.g. by density) when their are much simpler algebraic solutions (by universality). The last example I presented in my post was how to universally define polynomial derivatives and prove the product rule. Enjoying wordplay humor, I jokingly introduced it as the "piece de resistance (of limits, density...)" . My intent was for it to be interpreted as: here's a better/simpler example of *resisting* topological arguments by way of universality. Mariano's edit explicitly added emphasis to the phrase "piece de resistance" - thus making it much more likely that the remark could be misconstrued pompously. Moreover, when I rolled back Mariano's edit he immediately reintroduced it by rolling back my correction, so I had to rollback Mariano's edit a second time to get rid of his so-called "Tiny display of pedancy".

    [1] http://mathoverflow.net/questions/32133/expressing-adja-as-a-polynomial-in-a/32343#32343
    • CommentAuthorjbl
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2010
     
    If you don't want other people editing your posts, you shouldn't post in a forum where other people can edit your posts. What more needs to be said?
  18.  
    @jbl: should I interpret your response as saying that you would not mind at all if someone did the same to one of your posts - someone who has made it a point to openly disagree with you on many issues in other forums? Be serious. What's to be said is what the policy is about such abuse and gaming of the system.
    @moderators: does MO condone Mariano's behavior?
  19.  
    Am I right in assuming that what Bill is calling
    "abuse and gaming of the system"
    constitutes Mariano inserting accents in the phrase
    "piece de resistance"?
  20.  
    @Robin: Mariano *emphasized* something I wrote without emphasis- which had the effect of making it sound somewhat pompous. Moreover he would not let me delete his change - he reintroduced it after I rolled it back. Please see my 2nd-last post for a complete explanation and some background.
    • CommentAuthorKevin Lin
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2010
     

    I would not interpret accent marks as being "pompous", and I should hope that most other people here would not either.

  21.  
    @Bill Dobuque : I think your response here is pretty over the top. People might be willing to side with you if you were a little more measured in your tone, but "abuse and gaming of the system"? That's so extreme given what happened that it's hard to take your complaints very seriously...
  22.  
    @Andy My response is, alas, based an Mariano's past behavior on other forums besides MO. I'd prefer to nip in the bud any similar problems here.
    @Kevin: please read more carefully: the discussion has nothing to do with accent marks.
  23.  
    @Bill : I don't really care about your disagreements with Mariano in some other forum. They simply aren't germane to what is happening here. Mariano is a valued and long-standing member of our community, while you just arrived and started unloading on him over pretty trivial matters. How do you expect us to take your comments?
  24.  
    @Andy: my complaint is about what Mariano did *here* - which happens to be strongly correlated to our prior interactions on other forums. I point out such prior history only so you can understand why I take this matter more seriously than it may seem to you.
  25.  
    @Bill : Let me repeat myself using more colorful language : you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Chill out!
  26.  

    Am I correct in guessing that the "emphasis" Bill is referring to is italicization of "piece de resistance"? If so, I'd guess Mariano did not intend the italicization as emphasis. It is common (not universal) practice to italicize phrases from foreign languages.

  27.  
    @Andy: Sorry, you have no idea of the history.
  28.  

    Mariano's edits consisted of italicizing and adding proper French accents to the phrase pièce de résistance. This is a rather standard copyediting practice for foreign phrases in English text in general and for this phrase in particular: e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_de_resistance. Copyediting of posts on SO sites is (at least) implicitly encouraged by the existence of the "Strunk and White" badge.

    I confess that I am not very surprised by Mr. Dubuque's response. On a different post, he wrote about "Puiseaux series". If almost anyone else had written that, I would have edited it to "Puiseux series". But my experiences have taught me that it is not profitable to engage Mr. Dubuque on any issues except the most explicitly mathematical ones. I also find that (in my opinion, obviously) Mr. Dubuque very often expresses his opinions in unpleasantly extreme ways. He does, however, have a lot of mathematical insight: I try to keep my eye on that as much as possible.

    Finally, I do think that if you copyedit someone's answer and your changes are rolled back, it is most polite not to make the changes a second time but rather (if you feel it's worth it) post comments to the answer or here at the meta site. [Added later: apparently it is not clear that this comment applies to the present situation. Please take it then as a general opinion.]

  29.  
    @Bill : I think your insinuation that Mariano acts badly in other forums (without evidence) is rather unprofessional and unlikely to convince us of anything other than the fact that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
  30.  
    Mark, you are right that it's an established typographical
    convention to italicize phrases from other languages. There
    are other typographical conventions involving italics, for
    instance that letters used as mathematical variables be
    typeset in italic. What baffled me was that in later edits
    Bill retained the italicization of "resistance" but dropped
    that of "piece de" (please forgive my lack of accents).
    I cannot fathom the rationale for this.
  31.  
    It is impossible to understand why I am upset about this without knowing the history. Let's drop it. Hopefully Mariano will be more careful in the future.
    • CommentAuthorWillieWong
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2010
     

    Also, guys, for what it's worth, Mariano already explained that he (perhaps mistakenly) believed that Bill's first revert was a case of "simultaneous editing," and thus entered his changes a second time. (About 19 posts up.) This suggests to me that he didn't mean it to be ill-mannered or ill-willed.

    I'm inclined to take Mariano's word for it in view of the fact that Bill's first "revert" was not,in fact, logged as a revert, but as an editing change.

  32.  
    @Pete L. Clark: Thanks for the very kind words about my insight. But, could you please refrain from mischaracterizing some of our prior non-MO interactions as you do. Simply because I do not always agree with your (conservative) viewpoints does not imply that "it is not profitable to engage me in nonmathematical topics" or that I express my opinions in "unpleasantly extreme ways". As you said before in a comment to one of my MO posts, you (we) "squabbled in unprofessional ways" in some of these other lower-level forums, including "things that I (= Pete) most regret having posted to the internet, ever". My intent was to nip in the bud any chance of that continuing here on MO. I have high respect for both you and Mariano as mathematicians - even if we may have disagreed in the past about various subjective matters (e.g. pedagogy, methodology) in less professional forums. Hopefully we can all forget the past nonsense and move forward.
  33.  
    @Bill : In most human interaction, it is considered polite when suggesting that someone "forget the past nonsense and move forward" to refrain from prefacing the request with additional vitriol. In any case, your behavior here seems to confirm Pete's description of your behavior. To make the point another way : if you genuinely want other people to lay aside past grudges, you might want to start with yourself...
  34.  
    @Andy: sorry, I don't agree that what I wrote contains "additional vitriol". In fact I think it's quite restrained considering what Pete said above about me.
  35.  
    Bill you're misreading Pete's comments. It's already apparent to all of us who have never interacted with you before just from reading this thread that you express yourself in unpleasantly extreme ways and are difficult to engage on certain topics. What Pete's doing is putting in a positive word for you, namely that despite your negative first impression you do have something to offer. You're not doing yourself any favors attacking him.
  36.  
    @Noah: alas, your remark makes no sense based upon what is written above. Please let's drop this.